Mervyn Dinnen 0:06 You're listening to the HR Happy Hour Network sponsored by Workhuman. By some estimates, over 80% of AI projects fail because of bad data. But here's some good news for HR, when AI leverages the rich, authentic data of employee recognition, you get something truly unique: Human Intelligence from Workhuman, creators of the world's number-one recognition platform.Human Intelligence unlocks insights into performance and skills, culture and engagement, and help surface feel good stories that illustrate the best of your company culture. To learn more about Human Intelligence, go to Workhuman.com that's W, O, R, K, H, U, M, A, N.com. Mervyn Dinnen 1:05 Welcome to the HR Means Business podcast. I'm your host, Mervyn Dinnen. Today, my special guest is Jivan Dempsey. She's director at Five Rivers Consulting, and she specializes in HR change and in helping leaders to change company culture. She's author of the book "HR Change Managers Handbook: The 3 Step Guide to Managing HR Transformation," and is also the host of the HR Hacks and Halos podcast. Jivan, Welcome to HR Means Business, and would you like to introduce yourself? Jivan Dempsey 1:33 Yeah, sure. Thank you, Mervyn, thank you for having me, and it's a great pleasure to be here. There's nothing really much more to add. I'm a HR consultant. I've got 20 years experience of HR transformation, helping businesses transform through people, through process and through technology, and I've been doing that for a number of years. And I'm really happy to be here. Mervyn Dinnen 1:58 Good. I'm happy to have you on the show. What got you most interested, I suppose, in the area of change? Jivan Dempsey 2:07 I think it was a natural kind of progression. I when I first started my career, sort of many, many years ago now, I was working within the automotive and the aerospace industries, and both of those were going through changes, certainly in terms of automotive, because technology on the production line was changing and they were bringing in robots. They were bringing in new ways of working. The production line was becoming more global. There was more focus around end-to-end supply chains and looking at more agile kind of ways of getting cars made and getting them ready for first for sales. And I was really fascinated by all of that. And my role within HR was very much kind of being part of well, what does that mean in terms of the skills? What does that mean in terms of talent management? What does that mean in terms of leadership through the change that was being adopted in within those organizations? And I really, really enjoyed being part of that kind of global change, kind of task force, I suppose, for want of a better word, to allow other businesses to be changing, and then it allowed me to kind of step out of being as an internal consultant, which is essentially what I was into, becoming more of an external consultant. And I joined, you know, professional services firms, to really kind of learn more and to use my skills and to and to work with other organizations. It was a natural progression, really. Mervyn Dinnen 3:43 I see that. So looking at kind of shaping company culture, shifting company culture; What do you see, I suppose, as HR, most important responsibilities? Jivan Dempsey 3:57 It's an interesting question, because culture change is, I think, one of those things that HR can really use to kind of prove that they're more than just a support function we are in, you know, in my opinion, we are the custodian of organizational values and action within businesses. We're also the amplifier of those as well. But I would argue that, but we're more than just the kind of the megaphone for it. We have to be able to translate what those values mean to the organization through behaviors, through systems. Because it's not enough to say that, you know, we care about collaboration, or we care about in inclusion, etc, we have to be able to say, we need to be able to kind of, like, convert those into, what those are those values in terms of that lived experience, and what does it actually mean in the work life. So I would say that from a criticality, from HR perspective, we are more than just the drivers of organizational change; but we need to be able to frame that in a way that the whole organization really understands what organizational values are about, in terms of their own lived experience. So things like being able to define what the culture is, you know, in a really clear way that makes sense to the business to model what the culture, you know, in terms of what it's like to be working here, through leadership and through their behaviors. And then you know, the other, the other part, is to be able to measure and to adapt and to track it, so that, you know, as HR people, we as HR professionals, we understand where that culture change is really kind of making a difference, and to be able to make sure that it is something that we are actually able to to amplify and to lead. Mervyn Dinnen 5:53 I suppose that there's a balance to be struck between the need for cultural change, but also, a desire to preserve the core organizational values and identities. The HR teams have to strike that balance. Do you find in your experience that there's a risk of losing some of what makes an organizational culture unique? Jivan Dempsey 6:20 It's an interesting question, because if you know what makes your business unique, you know what values are actually driving your core being as an organization, they almost become your red lines. But you know, but core values, and then you can everything else, then can be adapted around those but you know core values, you know things like integrity or working, you know, with diverse teams, etc, and inclusion, for example, those values are quite high level, and they are not going to probably change very often, but the behaviors that sit within around and are demonstrable by those values, those change. You know, the rituals, the language, how you're actually demonstrating those particular values within your organization, they can evolve, and they can change. So so long as you actually identify what is unique to your business, what are your USP, we can kind of draw a line within those actually, these are the things that actually are non negotiable, and everything else around it does actually change. Yes, you know, there are, there are these red lines that you that you can set and you know, but the value that the behaviors that are associated with those are, those are the things that can change. But also, you know, if you, if you take a, if you do like a cultural audit, or you're doing like a kind of like a health check, you can understand the behaviors that are actually there and are actually successful, but also those behaviors that are actually holding you back and those that you never really want to know. So it becomes almost like an opportunity for you to really understand what is it about our business that is unique? What is it about us that we know, if we change those, then we lose the very essence of who we are. But as I say, once you get an understanding of what those are, then you can look at what are the kind of like, the you know. Once you know what the non negotiables are, then you can really understand what is it around those that actually can change, what can be adapted and what can be developed, so that we can actually know that we're on our path of culture change. So there is a there are the ways of being able to move things without necessarily losing the core essence of you as a business. Mervyn Dinnen 8:39 What would you say some of the pitfalls and barriers that the HR teams can face when trying to influence or, I think, transform, should we say a culture? And, how can they avoid them? Jivan Dempsey 8:53 It's another really interesting question, there's always going to be the gotchas, because culture change isn't, you know, it's not like a linear process. It's very messy, it's very emotional. And, you know, we all know what the change cup looks like, you know, it's one of those, isn't it kind of like a nice, sweeping, kind of linear path. But we know, you know, that change doesn't happen like that. It's pretty messy. It's up and down, it's backwards and forwards, and you know, essentially, we you're on a trajectory, but it's never a smooth trajectory. It's always going to be very messy. And I think that's one of the the key things to hold on to, that there's always going to be gotchas, that we are going that HR will need to have to manage, and need to have to, kind of like understand are going to be there. But the more awareness that you have on those, then the more kind of contingencies you can put in place to avoid those. So for example, you know the typical thing, which is just kind of like. Like rebranding values and then putting them on a poster. I mean, I've seen that done, and I think a lot of organizations have probably seen that done for a while. But you can't just change values and feel that they're and rebrand them without really understanding, you know, what that means. You can't really you need to have the values and behavior framework with it. What is it about these that are going to be different? You can't, don't just launch something and think that that is it. Each value needs to really be framed in a way of how that's going to be rolled out in in practice. Really other gotcha, I think that I've that, I again, that I've experienced in my in my years of doing this, is that HR sometimes takes accountability and responsibility for culture change, and it isn't just for us. It is a co owned thing, and it's down to leaders to take ownership of it, as well as HR to really understand and to drive process and the momentum around change, but also it's to remember it's not just top down, because there are other people within the organization that can actually help you and not engaging with your culture change, champions. For example, you may not have one of those already established within your business, but it's a good idea to kind of like tap into pockets of of individuals and employees within the business. We're kind of thinking along your way, of change, and using them, using your middle managers, who can also be quite a blocker, actually, in terms of any culture change. But remember that you know one of the key coaches is it doesn't just sit with HR. It is a co owned and a co driven responsibility. But HR is one of those is, yes, we nudge them. We nudge it forward. We help to facilitate it. We gather the evidence, which helps to kick start culture change. We can do the storytelling. Why it's important? Why do we need to have the culture change? What is it we have right now? What is it that we need to calm? Why is the why is the need and the driver there in the first place to do it? Yes, we can be the nudge, but actually understand that we're not alone in actually driving or owning that that culture change. Sometimes we also need to, you know, focus in on and we can ignore the informal networks. So like I said, you know, talking to the culture, setting up and working with the culture change network, if you have one, because ultimately, it's not just about power. Doesn't just reside in a hierarchy in organization charts. It's also the influencers that are around the business as well who really know exactly what how things are happening, and they have a real interest in, perhaps not necessarily, changing the status quo. Tapping into those individuals and into those power plays can be equally as important, and sometimes we can forget those because they're the hard ones that show up. Yes, you can talk to your senior leaders, because they're in charts, we can talk and get our sponsors organized, but actually sometimes tapping into the more informal networks it is is also a way of really ensuring that your only culture change is actually happening at a pace that you want and is and is going in the right direction, and is being successful, because You're tapping into all of the necessary kind of stakeholders. And that's one of the, I think again, another kind of gotcha that that sometimes can be neglected. People have said to me, you know, how, how do you, how do you identify what your informal networks are? And I would say that, you know, just we as you're gathering information, as you're pulling together your focus groups, as you are developing and creating your you know, your dashboards for where you are now, where you need to be. And you're doing focus groups, you're looking at your satisfaction scores. You're looking at what stories are being told to people who are joining your business, what stories are being told to by, you know, through your exit interviews, all of that is written number of grievances and complaints, or, you know, the promotion statistics. All of that is really invaluable information that you pull together and look at trends, and that will start to show you where some of the power plays are happening and where the informal networks are happening. So, you know, as I say, don't just focus in on the hierarchy. Focus in on everyone that has an interest, and everyone that is can be affected by that culture change. And what resistance are you actually seeing and, you know, experiencing there, because that can be a really important kind of gotcha. Not everyone's going to understand culture change. You want to make sure that your managers are really understanding what, what culture change is all about, and to really frame the why we're doing this in a way that everyone really understands it. Because if you are, managers themselves are probably also kind of going through the change, and they're also kind of having to manage it. There's obviously an element of overwhelm, and sometimes we can kind of just assume that managers, because we they've been part process, but they're just getting it. And that isn't always the case. They also need to be supported. You need to run. You know, they don't have to be classroom based training. It can be conversations, it can be workshops, etc, that actually help them to understand that now that we are an organization, for example, that is taking on diversity and now going to be supporting more employees that are not just neurotypical, but neurodivergent. What's the language that we need around the new employees that we're going to be bringing in and supporting? What's the frame of reference? What's the language we need to use? All of those can be reasons for managers to really take on, and we shouldn't just assume that they will know this, because it doesn't just happen through osmosis. And I think we could be, sometimes be blinded to that as well. And I think leadership, oh, oh, yeah, leadership, absolutely. We need to make sure that leaders are very much bought into the whole process, because ultimately, they are setting the tone for this. Leaders are, you know, like I said to you earlier, Mervyn, you know, we culture change isn't just something that HR does. Yes, we are the custodian, yes, we can be the amplifier, but we don't own it. It has to be through leadership, because that's who the employees are really looking up to. Leaders need to be able to not only own the culture change that they're looking to promote and to develop within their organizations, they also are setting the tone. They're also living the new behaviors, and they're also then talking about it and championing in their businesses. So the role of leaders at all levels in the business, not just the very senior people. And I want to, I don't want to kind of really kind of reinforce that message. It's not just the senior leaders. All managers need to be on board with it, because employees are looking to them, and if they're modeling the right behaviors, if they're modeling right values that we're looking to move towards in terms of the culture change, then it makes it so much more intertwined and more cohesive, because those managers are actually driving change. It becomes less about HR, becomes more around the organization and needs, and it's really important that they are doing it, but HR have a job to do in terms of framing culture change in a language that they really understand. So framing it that culture change isn't just about employee satisfaction, you know, attrition, because, yes, that's important. But actually framing culture change in terms of profit, terms of performance, even in terms of risk to the business, is a much more powerful language that leaders can really hang on to, because that's what they understand. They understand, well, what's in it for me, but where is the business case and where's the ROI for me? And that's really important, that they understand that, you know that brand damage, actually, it means that, you know our customers are getting a little bit nervous and they don't work with us anymore. But you know, we have, we have issues potentially, if you have, you know, high attrition, then obviously that's affecting productivity. That's affecting morale. Actually, couching it in terms of real data and real evidence will support leaders very much getting on board that something needs to change, but also understanding what business is. How is the business actually to change? Has there just been a merger or acquisition? Are you in a position of growth? Are you really struggling to keep hold of your competitive position because you've got all these disruptors coming along and chasing your tail? All of those need to come into context that HR can really drive that conversation and really make sure that they're tapping into leadership, so that they're supporting very much the culture change that you want to drive, and the reasons for why it needs to happen in the first place, even external indicators, like, for example, using benchmarks and using comparative data, even talking to or getting sometimes, you know, HR doesn't always have the strongest voice, as we know, in the boardroom, and it's very much down to us to really hold up a mirror to leaders, because if they're not actually demonstrating the behaviors that we want, then it really is down to us to challenge them and to hold up a mirror to say, no, no, we need to, you know, we need to change. And these are the kind of but couching it in terms of evidence is really important. And again, HR has a really important opportunity to be able to challenge and to call out when behaviors are not necessarily in the aligned with the values that you're wanting to bring in to the organization, but couching it in a language that those senior leaders middle managers can really understand and so that they can do what they need to in order to provide that support. But you know, the other thing that we, you know, 13, and I know we started with gotchas, and I've just got one more final gotcha, is that sometimes we can hold back and HR can hold back and wait until we've got a perfect kind of, you know, change project together. We've got everything all in the right place. And I would encourage you not to do that. I'd encourage you, if you've, if you've got some data points that prove that actually there is a change that is needed. And if you've got just one or two leaders that are kind of very much in support of you just go for it. Just just start doing the change that you want to do. Start talking messaging, start running workshops, start gathering more information, because you'll find that other leaders will become more interested in what you're doing, and will kind of, you'll find that you're kind of getting more support for the change that you want to drive. You know, it's we shouldn't necessarily wait for the perfect culture change program to look and to feel really good before we get going. Just let's get started. And, you know, start small and and, you know, as I say, the change curve is rarely linear. It's always messy. It's up and down, it's human, it's emotional. And then we just have to accept that, you know, accept it for what it is, but but to make a start. Mervyn Dinnen 22:05 I think you've always answered what I was going to ask you next, which was, how the kind of advice you give to HR professionals leading change, but facing resistance, or even worse, skepticism, shall we say, from within the organization, that could be anybody, anywhere in the workforce, or managers or leaders or whatever; When people come to you and say, Look, I'm trying to go through with this and and, you know, people just aren't buying into it, what's the advice you normally give them? Jivan Dempsey 22:40 I would say, kind of, first of all, just go back to the way you're actually framing the need for the culture change. It's really important that as HR professionals, we are using language that our our organization, really understands, so, you know, and to tailor it in a way that each of the stakeholders are really going to buy into. So, you know, your senior leaders are going to really want to understand the you know, what's your reason for this? You know, why are we going through it? They're so busy trying to make sure that they are that profitable, that the revenues are good that we've got new customers and new clients, etc, etc. Sometimes our voices are not always helpful when we're just talking about kind of HR, soft stuff and ethereal things around employee satisfaction, if we couch our language in terms of what senior leaders need, which is, what is the business case for this? Where are you headed? What is the what are we currently got now? Why is it broken? And what's your plan for helping it forward? That sort of language will actually help. And as I said, you know, we've mentioned it already, in terms of things like profitability and your risk profile, couching your culture change in that in that language, can be one way of really removing some of that skepticism and but also, you know, just remembering that senior leaders are not just the only ones that are going to potentially be skeptic, because if you can couch it in the In the right way, and you can capture their imagination, and you show it in the right way, then you're going to find that they are going to be supporters, and then you can use that support that you're gathering to start tapping into where other pockets of resistance or skepticism may be. You know, middle managers, for example, sometimes they're the left behinds. They're the ones that aren't always engaged with everyone wants to talk to the very senior guys and get their support. Absolutely, they're the ones who are going to be or they're going to be leading and setting the tone in terms of their own behaviors, in terms of what they're doing. But actually also the middle managers and the employees are also so important, because quite often. What you can find is that they are they do the right things in full view of, you know, the board or their managers or their bosses behind the scenes, they kind of revert to to other, you know, the old behaviors. And that's something that we need to also be aware of, and that also drives skepticism, because if you're only doing it because you think that your boss actually is there and is watching, then you haven't really bought into it, and there's still quite a bit of resistance. So the language and the messaging around the culture change and the need for it and the why needs to be at a very different level. For the you know, the middle managers, for junior managers, for new starters. And so it's, it's not just a one size fits all. It needs to work at different levels. You hate your heat map or kind of identify where your pockets of resistance might be, because sometimes they can be your usual suspects. And you know who's doing you know who's doing that? Tap into your change networks as well, and kind of get feedback from them, from the different parts of the organization, terms of, what are they actually saying, what are they actually hearing, in terms of anything that that could be useful to to come for HR, to the project team, to actually share and to manage and deal with I think if you can find who are your champions for your change and you can get your messaging right, You can use those champions to really change skepticism around. You can change resistance around because more and more people will understand, will begin to see, oh, you know, these are the behaviors. These are the new values. And they can see how other people are dealing with it. They can see how other people are getting on board with the change. And you can start to turn them around. So that level of skepticism will start to reduce, because if you're tapping into the right triggers and you're talking to the right people, slowly, there's a momentum that starts to build, and the resistance and skepticism will start to to reduce because more and more people are buying into what needs to happen. But that's true again. It's really important for HR to be monitoring it and to be tracking and you know, like I said, already, change isn't isn't neat, it's it's messy. So we're going to go backwards and forwards quite a lot, but you're only going to be able to know that if you're keeping a track of and keeping gathering that evidence that's going to show you a steady tracking in the right direction, and if things go slightly awry, what's going on? You know, what's the messaging we're getting? Let's go back and talk to our change champions. Let's go and do some more focus groups. Let's go and do some more one to one conversations with leaders, with employees. What's what's happening? Where is this pocket of of issue now arising, and then to adapt it so that you can get back on but really monitoring and tracking is also one of the things that need to happen here, because you need to be able to demonstrate that you're actually heading in the right direction. Because it can be very messy. And it's not necessarily that a leads to B, leads to C leads to D. It's not as linear as that when it comes to culture change. Mervyn Dinnen 28:29 Okay, my final question Jivan, which possibly could be a whole nother podcast chat on its own, I don't know. I'll keep it brief. It's just, I suppose that the impacts that the rise of remote, hybrid, flexible working, and the impact that that has had, and again, if ever I mentioned this on a podcast, I say, you know, I know that in the UK, for example, you know, over 60% of jobs that are done are location-specific jobs. People can't do them from home. They can't do them remotely. So in terms of the noisy minority of people who can, how have you seen this over the last, I suppose, two or three years impact change initiatives? Jivan Dempsey 29:15 Yeah, again, it's an interesting question, because I think we've all now kind of got used to working in a in a hybrid kind of fashion and and driving change when you're working in a hybrid capacity, can be quite it has its own it has its own challenges. It comes it has its own risks, but actually you can use it as an opportunity, because any kind of change that you're doing can be more intentional. You know, you are actually driving culture change by design rather than by accident, but actually understanding that that not all of your if not all of your workforce, is now in the office, and I can see the drive for why. People are now pushing people back into an office environment. I think there is an element of loss that's happened in that, you know, culture, once upon a time was very much defined by, you know, those water cooler moments, those having conversations informally or formally, within meetings, within the corridor. There's sort of nuances that have been lost. You can tell who's struggling. You can tell who needs more support. You can see how one person has done something and done it really well. You can kind of find those pockets of toxicity and where managers are behaving badly. Let's say all of that was more on show when you were in an office environment, but it becomes slightly behind the scenes, and HR is not always in a position to be able to see what's going on, and those conversations aren't always happening in a natural kind of way. I think we have an opportunity, really, to use, you know, hybrid working as a as an opportunity, as a way of, kind of like looking again at how we're going to be designing culture change, and what that means if, if hybrid working is now the way of working for your business going forward, then what does that mean in terms of the culture is your are your cultures, your values, are the the behaviors that you're actually seeing working within a Hybrid way? Are they actually still the right but other still the right ones, or are there elements of change that need to happen" So, it becomes more I'd say it's not necessarily more of a challenge; I think it's just an additional dimension that we need to think about or looking at how culture will change. Because there are, there are things that are now no longer happening, I think, for example, you know, for example, you know, if we're working in a very collaborative kind of organization, if that is one of the values working in collaboration, how does that get demonstrated, if you're working in a hybrid capacity, are we actually working collaboratively are all voices and having an opportunity to be heard, because we've all been on those meetings, those zoom meetings, where everybody wants to talk, and actually it's only the very loudest voices that are always kind of there and have and then by the time that you know, then the meeting comes to an end, you know what your message saying, five minutes is left. And so sometimes you get a loss of those voices. So how can you demonstrate, you know, real collaboration, innovation, etc, when it's it's very much driven by in the moment, because you have zoom meetings that are very they're not necessarily instantaneous. They're not spontaneous. That spontaneity that we would have in that spark that we may have within an office is no longer necessarily available to us anymore. So there's, how can we actually get that back, but knowing that we have to work in a slightly different way through through hybrid working. So there is, there is that, as you know, that as a big challenge for HR that would need to to to have a look and to overcome and to and to design that those you know, those elements of culture change in a very intentional kind of way. So I would say that actually, I think hybrid working doesn't necessarily need to be a barrier. Doesn't necessarily need to be different and and over the last sort of since COVID, all of the change programs that I've been involved in have involved have been a very hybrid, but there are elements of certain behaviors that you're not always going to see and you have to look out for them. So, for example, I mentioned toxicity and, you know, bad behaviors that some managers may have, it's not always going to be on show. So for example, you know, it's very timely, isn't it, in terms of what happened when Rachel Reyes yesterday, and you know, the whole thing there that it's, you know, it's very in the moment. Everyone could see it, because, you know, her emotions, kind of, whatever the reasons, and we can all speculate. But that's not necessarily the point I want to make. It's around the emotions, if someone was behaving badly, and those are the emotions, it's easy to hide. So you're not necessarily picking those up all of the time. And how do we really in a hybrid kind of capacity, kind of say that we have, you know, a safe environment that our employees can actually come and share when there are problems within organizational culture, where there are problems with managers, where managers are not necessarily behaving very well? How can we actually say now to HR, and if in a safe kind of way? Well, actually, I'm not happy about this behavior. That's also one of the really important things that I think that HR also needs to be kind of really getting to, and I'm sure they probably are already in terms of making sure that that is easily available, that in a in a hybrid kind of capacity, that no one gets left behind, that everyone still has that opportunity of sharing when something isn't necessarily right or it is is causing difficulty, but also to be able to share success stories as well. It doesn't have to always be negative. How can you actually make sure that everyone is actually understanding all the good things that are happening as well? There's elements of storytelling within that. There's elements of better communication, and I think it just means that you have to step up your game when it comes to culture and driving things forward and making changes, really by intention and specifically by design, knowing that there are different elements of the workforce working in different models, and all of them have to be in together as important stakeholder groups. Mervyn Dinnen 35:35 It does. It does. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. There's a lot there to unpack during the conversation. Jivan Dempsey 35:42 I'm sorry I went on so long. Mervyn Dinnen 35:44 No, no you didn't. Hopefully this is a podcast people will listen to again and again. If people want to get in touch with you or want to, I suppose, look at some of the work you do, what's, what's the best way to connect with you? Jivan Dempsey 35:59 The best way is through LinkedIn. I'm Jivan Dempsey. I'm the only Jivan Dempsey on LinkedIn. So, yeah, I've got, I've got USP there, plus also you could email me at Jivan@fiverivers, and that's F, I, V, E, rivers, Dash consulting.com (jivan@fiverivers-consulting.com). Mervyn Dinnen 36:14 Okay, Jivan, it's been a pleasure, and thank you for your time. Jivan Dempsey 36:19 Thank you very much, Mervyn, it's been lovely. It's lovely being being a guest for you on your podcast. Transcribed by https://otter.ai