Trish  0:09  
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Steve  0:58  
Welcome to the At Work in America show. My name is Steve Boese. I'm with Trish Steed. Trish, how are you? 

Trish  1:04  
I'm good. How are you? 

Steve  1:07  
I am well. Thank you very much. I'm excited. It is workplace movie hall of fame week here on the show, our favorite series. I guess we've been doing these for probably 10 years, give or take. I can't remember.

Trish  1:21  
We need to, like, have our producer look that up. Because I think you're right. It's been a long time, but it's one type of episode we get so many comments on and so many requests for. So I guess if you haven't listened in, we're glad you're here, and it's where we jump in. We're going to talk about a movie. They're usually a little older, which this one surprised me a little bit on how old it actually is. It doesn't feel like that. But anyway, so if you have any suggestions for workplace movie hall of fame, let us know. But for now, we're going to dig into this one. Do you want to do the big reveal?

Steve  1:54  
We're talking about the 2015 movie Spotlight, Trish. This is the Academy Award winning Best Picture of that year. It's an investigative drama. It's focuses on the true story of journalists at the Boston Globe who are investigating abuses by clergy in the Catholic Church in Boston, which later, of course, blows up right into a nationwide and worldwide ,right, story, which we know plenty about. The movie was won best picture also won Best Original Screenplay. Was nominated for six other six Oscars overall, directed by Tom McCarthy, starring Michael Keaton, Mark Ruffalo, Rachel McAdams, leave Schreiber and also John Slattery. He's not listed here. Was one of my favorites because I was always a Mad Men guy, and he's in this movie as well. But this movie, of course, it's about the investigations into these abuses at the Catholic Church, but it's obviously much more than that. It's a really interesting kind of story about organizations and power dynamics and responsibility in organizations and leadership. There is so much to unpack in this movie, from a workplace point of view and a leadership point of view and a people point of view. It's a perfect movie to break down and talk about a little detail here.

Trish  3:12  
It is, and I was saying earlier, it's one of those that we had to watch at the time 15 plus years ago. 15, 10, can't even add or subtract; 10 years ago, but we were watching it for purposes of it was up for an Academy Award or multiple and we were watching it sort of against other movies at the time. So I'm glad we're revisiting. I feel like I I've definitely watched it with a different mindset and a different eye for things. And I guess at the time I first thought I didn't really focus so much on the workplace implications and things like systemic, you know, just not even reacting to things right as they're blowing up around you, and having that then come to fruition in an organization. So, yeah, this is a good one to dig into, and definitely one I think that has so many similarities to things we see in organizations today, right?

Steve  4:06  
Yeah, I think there's sometimes it's a little harder on when we break down some of these movies to write, to draw clearer lines or more direct lines into what's happening inside people with normal jobs, right? But this movie, not so much at all. I think it's very, very clear and very direct and very applicable. First for me, Trish, I'll kick it off with this to me, in many ways, is a story about ethics and ethical considerations inside organizations, namely, right when you see or if you see something wrong, something illegal even, or something just maybe not quite principled, or something that just goes against the values of the organization. You see that going on, do you look the other way? Do you rationalize that behavior away? Or, do you you, you know, raise your hand and report up the chain and kind of even to some extent when it's leadership, maybe, you know, acting against the the values of the organization. What do you do? And that that that dynamic plays out probably in organizations every day.

Trish  5:12  
It does. And I think it even one step further, Steve is when you think about with this, there's obviously sort of the organization of the church, right, where the problem is coming from, but then it's all of the other organizations that are also turning a blind eye, including the newspaper, right? And so I think that happens in real life too. I mean, it kind of reminded me of back in the days of like Enron, when Arthur Andersen was implicated along with them. And then, like, if Enron's going down, they're going down too. So I kind of viewed it with that lens, a little bit of like, these aren't just standalone situations, necessarily. If you're turning a blind eye and you're not speaking up and saying something, it might not just affect your organization, but it could be your clients or, you know, some other organization you partner with. So yeah, just so many ties directly. Yeah, yeah, really interesting.

Steve  6:02  
And it can be very easy and very tempting, right, for people inside organization, especially long established organizations, to write, to look the other way, right, to protect their own position in the industry or in the community, right? There was a lot of this particular story that's covered in the movie, right? There was a lot of impetus and momentum behind these large, established community organizations like the church and also the Boston Globe, which I didn't look it up. It's probably been going on in Boston for 150 years if I had to guess. But certainly the only, you know, sort of paper of record of Boston, and it's very tempting to, hey, we've got it pretty good here. We were established, right? We're the we're the authorities. Let's not rock the boat, right? And, but forgetting about, you know, the very real, you know, the very real victims, right? In this case, that needed some advocacy, right against these powerful institutions. Most of us are not dealing with these kinds of issues in our workplace, but we could be dealing with similar issues on our own scale. Maybe it's a sales person who's, you know, exaggerating about the product benefits while trying to close the sale, right? 

Trish  7:19  
Maybe it's your CEO doing that. I mean, these things happen, right every single day and and even if you look at it from the standpoint of, you know, this was obviously a sexual abuse case, right, especially against children, but even in your own workplace, even one instance of something like this is huge. So it's not even like in this particular movie, they said there were over 1000 victims that had come forward. And again, this is back in 2015 I bet if we were to go revisit that now, there have been plenty more right that surfaced, and these were all around the world. So yeah, I think that it's, it's a little bit naive if you think that things are not going on in your organization, just having worked in HR like we have, I know you and I have both seen examples of every type of HR violation or people violation in every kind of organization you can imagine. So yeah, it's definitely I remember when I worked in healthcare, it was always the See something, say something. Say something, and you feel empowered that there's no retaliation. But I know plenty of people who, whether it's in your industry or in your organization, that you feel scared that there is going to be blowback on you, right?

Steve  8:34  
Trish, I think you're right. And I think why this in this particular aspect of this story, and really sort of one of the main themes of this movie, while it's so relevant for an HR audience, particularly is in organizations HR is sitting in that in the crosshairs of many of these kinds of situations between people doing, quote, unquote, the wrong thing or the unethical thing, and others who observing that may be reporting it through their HR organization, and perhaps in some organizations, leaders who want to look the other way or or, as you said, are even participating in the behavior. I mean, HR can really be squeezed from both ends, right in these kinds of stories, and it's not an easy thing to navigate, and I'm not sure we talk enough about that that's that stressor that sits on the backs of lots of HR people.

Trish  9:26  
Yeah, I want to mention the fact I wrote it down when you said you mentioned the community at large, right? That was impacted by this as well. I think that happens in our own organizations too, because things that might be happening that are internal to you are actually affecting your community as well. In this case, it was very much because, you know, in Boston, it's a very predominantly Catholic community, right? And many of the people on the newspaper as they went around the room, they were raised Catholic, they had gone to Catholic schools. So even though it hadn't happened to them specifically, it it was going to impact their relatives or your belief system. I think that we need to be careful in HR by turning a blind eye to even one inkling of a complaint of any kind, because it's really just the tip of the iceberg. And again, if you do nothing, you're not just hurting whoever's reporting something to you, right? You're, you're hurting a whole community, potentially, depending on what it is, right, yeah, but there is a lot of, I won't ever name companies I worked for, but they're, you know, they're just, I've seen it all. So if you go and open, you know, your HR management 101 textbook, and it gives, sort of the lists of everything that could happen in an organization. I have literally seen every single one of those things in real life play out. So again, I think it's about you watch something like this. Think of it as, what would I actually do if this was reported to me? Would I do anything? Would I not do anything?

Steve  11:00  
And the follow on to that Trish, which I think takes us to another interesting aspect of this story in this movie, and the case that underlies it is, when you take that complaint or that issue, or that observation, or the whistleblower complaint, whatever we're calling it, what happens when leadership finds out about it? What do they do? What's their reaction? Right? A big element in this, in this story, is the investigation by the paper, by The Globe, into the church really gets kick started when the globe gets a new leader, right? A new I probably executive editor, I suppose was his title. He comes in from external the organization, external to the city. So he's got no entrenched biases or dedication to any organization in the city, or allegiance, is what I'm looking for. He's just coming in as an outsider. His name is real life. In real life. His name is Marty Baron. He's real person. And he comes in and, you know, is digging into what's going on in Boston and what's going on in the paper, and raises the question on his very first day on the job, yeah, hey, what are we doing about this story? We're not doing enough about it. Let's get on this story. And throughout the movie we see his leadership, you know, not flamboyant, not yelling, not making a scene, just quiet, kind of Steed, we are going to do the right thing. We're going to force transparency. We're going to force the truth to come to light, and eventually you can see how everybody rallies behind that in the organization. And I think that's key for some of these organizations to do the right thing is, what does leadership side, what did they model?

Trish  12:42  
And I think you bring up the point of he wasn't sort of screaming, right, standing on a table or something, yeah, I do think you can be sometimes even more effective, being that more quiet, resilient type of leader. Because what he did was he he did, I think what all good journalist should do, right? He was sort of poking and prodding a little bit, but expecting his team to then start questioning more and go through that, that process of journalism, and that was one of the notes I made that I didn't really key in on the first time I saw it was, it's real when you think about how journalism is supposed to be done, right? It is about finding the truth, no matter what that is. It is about sort of not sensationalizing things. And this could have been one of those topics that could have been over sensationalized. And maybe would have, they might have lost track of who, to your point, who the real victims were, yeah, but because they respected the victims, it wasn't like sort of a national inquire, kind of a investigation, right? But I think I wonder if you agree with this, but like, I think nowadays, because newspapers are slowly dying out, or at least, you know, in the way that maybe we grew up with them, some of those really solid journalistic traits and skills have been lost because a lot of the news we consume is coming from untrained individuals, right? And you and I, we get our news that way too, right? Tiktok or Reels, or sometimes real, real people out there, you know? But there's a whole lot of opinion that goes along with some of that information, and I think it really just made me respect the profession of being a journalist more than I had before. Now that I'm seeing that so much of the news we consume isn't done with that rigor and that solid foundation of, I guess going out and just gathering facts without really forming an opinion about it necessarily, or to the best of your ability, not putting opinion in. I don't know. I mean, did you pick up on that too?

Steve  14:53  
Yeah, I did. The story. While it's a 2015, movie, the events in the movie are taking place in 2001 primarily, and so yeah, we're still, we're pre dating, not certainly the internet, but we're pre dating social media to a large extent, or maybe to a complete extent at that point. So most news would have been consumed through mainstream, as we say today, mainstream outlets like The Globe, like the big papers, like the times, like CNN and those kinds of outlets, and so that while they're all still around, right, it's certainly debatable whether or not they're as important as they used to be, or perhaps you could argue they're even more important than they used to be, because of all this other information that's out there too. But I think the leadership here, it's a good lesson as well about just sort of gaining people over to your side, because he comes in from the outside and wants to investigate the church in a more comprehensive manner, and quite a few of the folks at The Globe either didn't really want to or felt like they had already done an investigation and didn't really find much. So he had to bring people over to his side. And he did that through listening, through listening to their concerns, pushing back, but not screaming, but sticking to his his intuition and sticking to his principles. And then a real crucial moment when, when the editor says, Well, you know, the investigative journalists at The Globe, they have success because they pick their own projects, right, right? He didn't say, well, you're picking this one now, or this is now your project. He says to them in the movie, now, I don't know if this really happened in real life, but in the movie, the leader says, Would you consider picking this project? Now, of course, he meant, I want you to pick this project, but he didn't say it right? He asked them, right? And of course, they do. And then, and then the investigation sets off from there. So I think it's a really interesting and some good takeaways there. I thought on leadership from from how they ran that investigation.

Trish  16:56  
You mentioned realism. So one of the things I did a ton of research on just to see how accurate was this. And so apparently they had gone back and had asked the like reporters had asked the Spotlight journalists, right the team that was sort of working on a new project every year for the globe, and they said that it is almost 100% accurate. They said, down to down to the things that were on their desks. Like the actors, desks were real. Everything was as real as they could make it. And each of the actors shadowed and spent extensive time shadowing and working alongside the person they were playing so that they could get the dialog right, the perspective right, every little detail, right. So again, I wish I would have known that, or maybe I knew that back when the, you know, the Oscars were out, but I think too, that's why this made such a great Oscar nominee and then ultimately a winner, because it was done with such rigor that I don't think many entertaining movies are subject to, right? 

Steve  18:02  
As a workplace movie too, it really for in the, you know, in the pursuit of realism, right? There's so many little elements that are just what workplaces certainly used to be. Maybe many still are right. Little rituals like the retirement speech at the beginning of the movie, when one of the old reporters is retiring, and they gather around and have someone cuts up a cake and they make speeches. Or when they're all marching into the 10:30 meeting, right? We've all been in offices that had a certain meeting and the meeting had a name. It wasn't like, oh, the editorial meeting or whatever that was, right? Oh, the 10:30 meeting, right? Who's going to the 10:30 meeting, right? And then even just things like, you know, having terrible snacks, you know, from the vending machines and things like that, they got a lot of those little details right about, certainly, turn of the century kind of workplaces. It looked like it looked very authentic, too. 

Trish  19:00  
It's weird to view it through this lens, though, isn't it? Now, 20 years later, 25 years later, actually, because you and I both worked in that 2000, 2001 workplace right? At the time, through that lens, it didn't look that bad. But now, sort of in hindsight, you look back and think, why did we work that way? Why do we allow it? Or there's one point where Mark Ruffalo, his character, Mike, is like screaming at his boss, cusses, cusses carries I thought, I've never done that. I've just, you know, like, how strange to think about going to work and like having this, but when I thought about many of the places I worked, I've seen people do that. As HR, I didn't go, like, reprimand them or ask them, like, what's going on? You know, it was just sort of an expected like, oh, once in a while people blow up and, yeah, you know, they just let off steam by yelling at each other. I don't know. It's just very different now is what's acceptable versus what's not in a workplace.

Steve  20:05  
I think they really nailed that. I felt like it could have been any office around that time, certainly a newsroom as well, right? We've seen a lot of these kinds of movies around newsrooms, but very the details really matter, and this, this movie did a really good job of nailing those details to present that really authentic workplace experience. Another topic I wanted to bring up, Trish, is and something I've been talking about a lot. In fact, I recorded a Workplace Minute today, so this will have been out by the time this podcast runs about elder care. I've been on caregiving a lot lately, but the emotional labor associated with the people who provide elder care, that's a really hard job, right? It's a lot of stress, all of it, right? And and that this movie touches on this as well, right? This is it's an emotional job for the people covering this story, hearing the when they're interviewing victims of the abuse, hearing their stories. It's very heart wrenching at times. It's very touching and, you know, and this is just one type of job that has that there are lots of jobs out there. She worked in health care. You know, all the the emotional load that the people working in healthcare have to carry every day. And really commenting on, I guess for me, my comment is it makes me think about the support structures that we're putting in place in organizations to support people who are either carrying a really heavy load in their day to day jobs, or just in general, right? Maybe they're caregivers, or maybe they're, there's other circumstances in their lives. Maybe they're sick themselves, honestly, right? And they're carrying that so I don't know, I don't know how much you thought about that as you watched this movie. I thought about it a little bit, and then the broader context of, how are we showing up for workers, right, as organizations and as leaders?

Trish  21:58  
I hadn't considered it when I was re watching it, Steve, but as you're saying, it like, in my head, I'm playing, playing through some of those scenes where Rachel McAdams, for example, is out. She was, you know, trying to find some of the former priests, and she goes up to the door of one, and he he's answering the questions, and he's basically admitting it to her, like I did this. But he says I didn't rape anyone, but I did all these things, right? But nothing was done to, you know, whatever. And his sister comes out the door, right? And, and this is an older priest, former priest, and his sister is an older woman as well, so I'm sure she's, he's having memory issues, I guess. And she kind of steps in and says, Get off my porch, you know, don't. And, and Rachel kind of turns and she's looking and they live literally across the street, like heady corner from a school, yeah, and you can just see the weight of that knowledge on her and and you're right. I think that even now, so many organizations don't have something in place where you can truly go to speak someone in the workplace, I'm not talking about, like, lots of places say, Oh, well, support your therapy. We have benefits for you can go elsewhere, but where is that place in our organization where you can go and like, she would have needed it that day, for example, she could have gone back and been like, I don't even know how to process this, right? Especially reporters, they're getting lots of really bad news, always, and I feel like HR is in that spot. And when I worked in health care, I would say just, I would apply this to whatever organization. It was, a children's hospital, and children come for treatment, and some survive, and many do not, right. Many die from cancer or long term illnesses, and they're there for months or years leading up to this. And we had something in place for the nursing staff, right the people that care for them on a daily basis, because they get to know the patients. We had never considered to do anything like that for the housekeeping crews, and what we learned was they were equally impacted by caring for these children. They were cleaning the rooms of the same children, day in and day out. They got to know the families. They got to know the children. If that child passed, it was a huge weight. So sure, I would say, kind of back to your original question. I think that sometimes even if we're trying to put things in place to help our employees deal with big issues we're not even considering down the chain of our employees who else might be impacted by what we're doing, right? So, if anything you take away from this as an HR leader is just a business leader, think about how something that happens in your organization, or maybe your client, or whatever, the ripple effects that has through every type of job. So it's not just one job being impacted, but yeah, definitely in the case of The Boston Globe, I didn't see any evidence that these reporters were being supported from a mental health perspective.

Steve  25:02  
It wasn't touched on in the movie. Now, it perhaps was something that was done, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't touched on in the movie. And honestly, in a 2001 workplace, probably would not have been talking about too much in a typical workplace.

Trish  25:16  
I don't have an ERP phone number, yeah.

Steve  25:20  
EAP, right, yeah. I worked a really long time in offices. You did as well. I don't really ever recall talking about stress or burnout or mental health, really at all, until 2010 ish, maybe, maybe in I'm not even sure then.

Trish  25:37  
The example I gave would have been about 2010, 2011. So, yeah, that's, that's when it started to be examined, I think.

Steve  25:45  
I think that for me, Trish, the last thing this movie made me thought think about some was this idea of institutions and the institutional we touched upon this a little bit. But institutional reputation, versus standing up for the truth and standing up for what's right, and really kind of framing it like as whether it's an HR question or is it's a cultural question, like, is the organization more concerned as a stance right? Are we more concerned with our reputation, our market share, our standing in the community, etc, our legacy, etc. Or are we concerned about the truth? Are we concerned about doing what's right? And do our policies reflect those they do reflect those choices typically right. But do our or our actions reflect those choices, even despite what our policies say and we talk all the time, right? About many organizations talk all the time about being people first, people first, right? This movie challenges you as as a as an organization and as a leader to think about that. Are we really putting people first? In this case, these people were victims of terrible crimes, right? But you can think of the abstract a little bit, which is why we do these shows, right? It's obviously dealing with this. It's very clear, but other times it's not so clear. And where do you stand, right, as the organization, are we trying to protect our brand at all costs? Right? Are we trying to do the right thing? And those are, that's a bigger question, I think, but one worth at least thinking about.

Trish  27:23  
Yeah, think you're right. I think brand is very important, obviously, for many reasons, especially when they're shareholders and such involved. I will say I like to be optimistic and think that most organizations do the right thing to the extent they can. But I would also challenge that, and say, in every organization, regardless if it's a 10 person, a 50 person, a 5000, 500,000 right? There are always exceptions to the rule. And HR sees this, and that's how we can come to the table, prepared differently, I think. And giving that advice of you can't give special treatment to someone just because they're bringing in millions of dollars of work. For example, I remember I had someone who was a he had a really bad history of violence, we'll say. And his boss, what turned out to be his boss. He they wanted to hire him, even though he had this whole history of and we were cautioning against it legally. And, long story short, we hired the person. He brought in so much money, great at sales, until he had an episode with a client. And so, you know, I think the thing is, too though it's like, even though we handled it, I'm not saying what company it is, right? I'm still protecting their brand. And so where do we as people feel empowered enough that we can actually say, who hurts us? Who hurts our company? Who hurts you know, the employees like I don't know. I just feel like we still, at least our generation, I think we're still not openly talking about all of the wrongs that are done and people don't have to pay for their wrongdoing.

Steve  29:10  
Yeah, and there's certainly a lot of cultural support almost, for I guess I'd say it this way, those kinds of things in organizations, whether it's inappropriate conduct and unethical conduct violence in the case the example you're giving, I mean, they're especially in a large organization, but they're not, they're not often isolated instances, right? I mean, sometimes they are but, but often they're not, because there's an undercurrent of, well, it's kind of okay, or you're kind of going to get away with it. Like it in the movie talks about this too, a little bit, right? Like when they're when they're investigating, you know, priest Smith or priest Taylor, priest Jones, whatever they talk about. Well, the stories in. About that priest, right? Or these two priests. The story is about the system. It's about the processes in place that allowed this to continue. It's about the people at the top of the organization who knew about it, right? It's, it was a failure of process and system and culture, right? It wasn't just these isolated instances. And I do think that's another, I guess, challenge for folks to think about, yeah, you know, are is the culture one that allows for instances like that to occur in the first place, and what happens when they do?

Trish  30:30  
Yeah, and often I, you know, I think people don't want to believe the worst about people, especially like a priest, where you you trust their word. You trust that they have taken these, you know, vows, basically, of being, you know, not not just celibate, but like caregivers. And you know, they're the ones who are supposed to be the moral authority on how we all live our lives, right? And so that would be even more difficult, I think, to come out and speak of a priest in that way. But I think that much like they did, where they shuffled them to different parishes in hopes that that would just like go away. We do this all the time in organizations. We have bad actors and but again, if they're bringing in money, if they're good with clients, they get shuffled to a different city or a different you know, client, or whatever. And if you're a mid level manager, you don't always feel like you have any power to do anything about or what? If you're a more junior person in the organization, who are you going to tell you're going to risk your own job? So it's a lot. I would say this by the time the movie ends, and I don't want to for anyone who wants to go watch it, we're not like giving a spoiler...

Steve  31:40  
We're spoiler alerting an 11 year old movie based on a true story. 

Trish  31:45  
I don't want to really say how it ends, other than it kind of leaves you an unsettled feeling like this, even though it occurred, even though it was fully investigated, and changes did happen, and people did have to have consequences. It's just a very unsettling feeling to think about maybe your organization where you go to church, what like, where other community organizations you're part of just makes you take a pause and think like, man, what could be going on that I don't know about, I don't know. And would I say something if I know, right? So, yeah, this is a movie that definitely made me think about a lot of different things in the workplace I hadn't thought of in quite a while. So really good movie.

Steve  32:31  
It was one of my favorites the year we did the Oscar show that year. I remember, I can't remember specifically what else was up that year, but this one won for Best Picture. It was one of my favorites. It's very rewatchable, I think too. I have rewatched it over the years a couple of times. Free on Tubi right now if you haven't watched it, yeah, go to t u b i. There's a Tubi app on your smart TV or your smart phone and watch it for free. But really good movie, really fun to watch and glad, great to talk about too today.

Trish  33:02  
I think so too, and I'm glad we're doing this again. It's always fun to have watching a movie be part of my actual job. I appreciate that the fans love it. And yeah, I'm I guess we should maybe say too, like, normally, this is the time of year, we're doing all of the Oscar watching right to give our predictions, and we've done that probably over a decade as well, right? But this year we're gonna, kind of lay back on that.

Steve  33:28  
Watching one movie as part of our job was, was doable. It didn't feel like watching 10 more movies between now and March 1 wasn't gonna fit into my schedule either this year.

Trish  33:38  
So I know it's like I sort of was giving myself permission to go to these things. That was like work, and now I'm like...

Steve  33:46  
We'll pick one of them, maybe, and do another workplace movie hall of fame in a few months, right? How about we do that? Super fun. A couple things real quick. Of course, go to hrhappyhour.net, find all the shows. The whole network is there. We're also everywhere you listen to your podcast. Spotify, YouTube, Apple podcast, and more. We're doing more with video. Check out the YouTube channel. That's HRHappyHour live on YouTube, and the new podcast HR Connection launch. So congrats to Sabrina and Marie for that, and we're excited to have them on board network. So I think that's it for me. Trish, any last words from you?

Trish  34:21  
No, just I'm ready for the next movie. Can we tease what it is? Can we say what it is?

Steve  34:26  
Go ahead, because I honestly don't remember.

Trish  34:28  
In May, we're gonna get everybody ready, because we don't do these every single month. But in May, Devil Wears Prada 2 comes out.

Steve  34:37  
Oh, of course!

Trish  34:39  
We're going to do this movie. We challenge all of you, please, when it comes out, and then reach out to us, because we won't be able to record until after so we'll probably do it in early June. I would guess, too.

Steve  34:51  
I'm stoked for that. I will go to movies and see that for sure.

Trish  34:53  
Yes, I want to see that in the movies. But anyway, but Yeah, bring us any suggestions for otherwise.

Steve  34:58  
Where's Prada and Steed? Steve wears J Crew, that's my version.

Trish  35:02  
That's what you're wearing today? I'm wearing, I think, Haynes sweatshirt today.

Steve  35:06  
So very good. All right. Anyway, so thanks everybody for listening. Thanks to thanks to our friends at Workhuman, of course, and for Trish. I'm Steve. We will see you next time on the HR Happy Hour Network. And bye for now.

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