Mervyn Dinnen  0:09  
What if your wins at work didn't have to stop there? Workhuman's Employee Recognition platform is built on the world's largest rewards marketplace, tying recognition for great work to the things that people love outside it. Crush a project? Snag that baking dish you've been eyeing. Hit a milestone? Celebrate with a weekend getaway. With over 1 million gadgets, gift cards and experiences, something is redeemed for in Workhumans in house store every three seconds. Each reward deepens connections, boosts engagement and helps fuel a culture that knows their work matters and has the receipts to prove it. Head over to workhuman.com to learn more. Workhuman a proud supporter of the HRHappyHour Network. Welcome to the HR Means Business podcast, which is part of the HRHappyHour network. I'm your host, Mervyn Dinnen. Those listeners who follow my ramblings and newsletters on platforms like LinkedIn and when I'm at conferences will be aware that one of the main topics I talk about are intergenerational and multi generational workforces and how we can combine to get the best output from a whole range of different ages. You'll probably also know that I've recently wrapped up a series of 30 video conversations with Danielle Farage, who is an older member of Gen Z, she calls herself, but is a public speaker, strategic storyteller, creates a lot of content which reaches 12 million people a year, and we've recently, as I say, wrapped up a series of 30 conversations in which we're looking at different aspects of generational differences at work and exploring them. So Danielle, welcome again, because we did speak a couple of years ago, to the HR means business podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Danielle Farage  2:10  
Hi. Yes, I'd love that. Well, thank you for having me. First of all, I hope my sound quality is good enough for our listeners. I am Danielle Farage, like garage with an F and I create a lot of content about the future of work and multi generational dynamics in the workplace. I speak all over the world about Gen Z and helping HR leaders really understand versus rely on their biases when it comes to Gen Z in the workplace so that we could really thrive together. I know that might sound a little bit cliche, but I I do believe that every generation that is in the workforce right now dealt with some sort of bias when they came in to the workplace that was maybe directed at them by older generations. And I think it really does inhibit our ability to work together in a more conscious and collaborative manner. And I think at a time like this, when technology is really coming in hot we our best resource is really each other. So that's what I help organizations with across the world, and I'm really happy to be joining you here on your podcast again.

Mervyn Dinnen  3:27  
It's great. It's great. And you're right even, even at my advanced years, when I started in the world of work. Yes, I was. There was a quaint old English expression that said put up and shut up, which is basically a variation of, do your work and keep quiet. But anyway.

Danielle Farage  3:48  
I think people are still probably saying that under their breath a little bit.

Mervyn Dinnen  3:53  
In a different way, in a different way, in a different way. I know that one of the things that I have been asked is I talk about multi generational, intergenerational, and what is the difference? And I suppose the easiest way to explain that, from my perspective, is multi generational is what they are. It is a workforce of people from different age groups, different backgrounds and different experiences. Intergenerational is what they do. That's how they collaborate, how they can come together to create the output. So my first question, Danielle, is, when you think about the state of intergenerational dynamics in workplaces right now, not the theory, but what you actually see and hear when you're out there speaking to and visiting companies, what's the mood? I mean, do you feel that organizations are getting a bit better at this? Are we still largely stuck where we were with kind of, you know, intergenerational disharmony?

Danielle Farage  4:57  
You know, I would say, just to zoom out a little bit, you know, based on what you were talking about with intergenerational and multi generational, you know, we are managing five generations at once for the first time ever, or in a really long time. You know, people are working for longer than they ever have. And at the same time, change is happening faster and more visibly than ever before. So what's really driving and what I'm really seeing is the mood isn't exactly explosive conflict, but it's more a quiet friction that is underlying, that people feel in different ways and might feel you know differently, depending on what generation you are, about what exactly frustrates you, but most tension isn't really that like loud disagreement, but it's really this misinterpretation of the the exact intention behind something you know. For example, we had this thing with like emojis like last year, where a thumbs up emoji for Gen Z was interpreted as passive aggressive, and you wouldn't know that unless you actually asked them, right or there it came up In some sort of maybe tension, or a tense conversation where it's like, you know, someone's kind of bringing that to light. Or maybe you read a charter article that talks about how the thumbs up emoji is a bit passive aggressive for the next generation. So that's what I would say, is like organizations aren't really that, like stuck. But I think maybe some of them are misdiagnosing the problem as Gen Z is lazy or entitled or, you know, they're ridiculous with what they want from different generations in the workplace or how they want to be treated. So, yeah, that's what, that's what I'm seeing.

Mervyn Dinnen  6:59  
Yeah, no, I get that. I get that. We have discussed this a bit in the past, but yes, the thumbs up emoji. If I go back to when I started work, it nobody would I think, give, give a moment's thought to pulling a face. We didn't obviously have emojis then just pulling a face or showing a bit of kind of can't be bothered attitude, it would just be, you're here to work, just just do your work and go home. But I think that which leads me on to, I suppose, one of the key themes that we always keep coming back to is that different generations are responding to different realities. So, you know, we go back in time and, you know you worked hard, that meant that you could save that meant you could get on the ladder to buying a property, to building your life. And that, as we've discussed on a number of the episodes we've recorded before, that doesn't really work anymore, particularly for Gen Z and for Gen alpha, who come next. So this changes the dynamic slightly in how people show up at work and and is this, I mean, do you think this is generational, or is this context?

Danielle Farage  8:14  
I really, I think, I really think it is a confluence of both, because you can't talk about generations without talking about context, right? Like, you know, I will also, I will say if you were graduating during like your time, Mervyn, right, like you had different generations in the workplace that were older than you, that had been through wars, right? And you might have been born, I don't know when you were born exactly, but you might have been born like in, in in that realm, like it, whatever there, maybe there was war or some sort of activity happening, but maybe you weren't directly involved with it. And so that shapes your perception. That shapes your context of entering the workplace. And so to your point, like older generations did have that stability and that, you know, the corporate ladder really did work for them, but then Gen Z comes into the mix, and it's like endless instability. You have most of Gen Z graduating into the pandemic, an instable world where everything was different for everyone, where job mobility looks different, flexibility, work from home, work from office, hybrid. Everything is changing all the time, and then you also have skills rapidly changing because of new technology. And so I would say, like the reactions of different generations are going to be different. They're all rational, but they're just optimized for different environments. And so I don't think that we're seeing different work ethics, per se, but we're seeing different survival strategies based on the reality that people are born into. You have boomers at a crazy conversation at South by with the CMO of a fortune 100 company. And I think it is a perfect kind of category, like, it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. And that is this woman is saying to me, you know, I our our policy is five days a week in the office, and you know, if a pilot has to work full time, give give a little bit away, if a pilot has to go into work full time, then why shouldn't I, as the chief of marketing? And I'm just like, that's a totally different career path than what you're talking about. But okay. And then goes on to say, if I work five days a week in the office, and I have a couple of kids, and I'm fine with having help, as should someone else be. So the reality for her is that she can afford to have help, and that she grew up in a time where that was the standard for, you know, even the standard was even for women not to work. But if women could work, it's that they have help, probably full time, and five days a week is totally fine for her. But that's not the reality for your average Gen Z-er who was born into, you know, and born into the workplace into a post pandemic world where we were able to have flexibility, and we were working three days a week, or hybrid or even full time remote, and that reality of, Oh, I could be a mother and have a full time career corporate career is actually feasible. It's something I could have. And so when the RTO policies start cracking down, that reality starts to get shattered without much explanation or rational thinking behind it, because Gen Z is really about intentionality. So I thought that was a really good example of like, what we're actually talking about around context and and generational problems.

Mervyn Dinnen  12:03  
Yeah, no, I get that. I get I get that. I must point out, because I think you picked up when you said kind of wars and things that I think you you probably picked up on something I've said in one of our previous chats, which is when I started as a hungry junior trying to learn my the basics of accounting and things. The very senior partners at the top are people who had experienced that and whole post war area and stuff. But the it and that, again, was a very different culture, because we were just supposed to sit there quietly and listen and absorb and not be seen, seen and not heard, rather.

Danielle Farage  12:42  
And the context there, and like, too is, you know, you're, you're coming into work, and it's like, oh, what do you have to complain about? You know, I was, I was in a war, like, I, I came from the war that, you know, you were reading about in the newspapers. Like, what do you have to complain about? And, you know what in that context? Like, that's totally, that's a totally fair argument. But it's been a while since the entire US has been drafted, and thank God for that, right? But, but I think it's it's just different, it's just different context.

Mervyn Dinnen  13:11  
I won't make any passing comment about any current political things. I think we need to keep to the workplace. So what's You, know, you and I have discussed this a bit, but I mean, for the purposes of listeners here, what, what to you are the most common kind of misunderstandings that you're seeing in the workplace? You've mentioned, obviously the kind of remote and flexible working. But what are the other misunderstandings you're seeing between the generations.

Danielle Farage  13:41  
Now, this is a whole hour long conversation, Mervyn, but, I mean, I would, I would ask you the same thing, but I will say one of the bigger, one of the bigger ones that I've seen really impact work is, you know, words carry a lot of weight and meaning, and when we think about words that we commonly use, like loyalty and professionalism and hard work, the funny thing about these words we use them all the time at work, and yet we don't often take a moment to actually define them. And in a pre pandemic world, that would have been fine, because everyone's going to the office. Everyone has the same expectations. Everyone has a role model for what a promotion or a viable candidate for a promotion, looks like. But in a post pandemic world where you have teams in different parts of the country and even the world, and people coming in at different times, where everything kind of seems and feels a little bit dispersed, little bit different. You don't have the same information transfer as you did, and the same osmosis of everyone understands this is our culture, and this is how we define hard work, and this is how we dress, and this is how we you know, how we get promotions? All these things are not immediately obvious to someone coming in in a post pandemic world, and so I think some of the common misunderstandings as a result of that is, what is professionalism? What does that look like? What is job mobility? How you know, what is the meaning of loyalty? Why is it valuable? You know also, the incentives behind being loyal to a company are very low, like few and far between incentives for that. You used to have lifelong employment, right? Like there, there are a lot of misunderstandings and misinterpretations happening. And so I would say, like, intent is, like, still positive on both sides, but interpretation is really where it breaks down. Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. What are you seeing?

Mervyn Dinnen  16:19  
No, I mean much, much, much about the same. I think one of the you've raised job tenure, which, in fact, was, was what I was going to ask you next the I think this is one of the common flashpoints, isn't it that there's this belief that Gen Z, Gen alpha, you know, they say it's like disloyalty. It seems disloyalty, the fact that people move around and probably change jobs every 18 months, two years, you know, why aren't they staying like I stayed? Or, you know, the people I learned from stayed for many, many years and worked their way up. But of course, this is, you know, this all leads back to so many other things as we've discussed in the past, that to do with economic things and to do with with just cultural things, as to how we build careers now. So I think that, you know, the common thing is, you know, leaders, managers will see Gen Z staying in roles for, like, 18 months, 20 months, and then moving on, and that, you know, it's seen as disloyalty, but, I mean, as from your aspect, you know, what's really going on here? It's something slight, slightly different.

Danielle Farage  17:35  
It's a great it's a great example, and it's one to dive into. You know, it didn't start with Gen Z. It really started with different other generations who are still in the workplace. You know, you had probably Gen X was the last, I would say, the last generation to really value that, like, 20 year career, because the incentives were there, right? Like, you could see yourself climbing up the corporate ladder and getting to a leadership position, and that was all attainable in the same company, but with the rise of millennials, I would say in like the 2010s is where we started to see people job hopping more frequently every three to five years became really the norm, and that is because they could get better pay, like the incentive to stay at a company was not as strong as the incentive to go to a new company and to get more experience, to get more exposure to different leaders, to get more exposure to new skills and building new skills. And if you think about today, I mean, everyone's talking about skills first hiring, and I would think that someone who enters their career now would be trying to get as many skills on their resume as possible, rather than zooming in on one specific skill and becoming like an expert on that one thing when, like a lot of companies, are now hiring generalists and that very you know, specific form like that expert level person beyond an AI expert is not as valuable to a company, because there are 1,000,001 things they're trying to do now, and it's all about speed and so like that. I think that is one of the examples I would give, as far as like why is, why are the incentives to stay at a company, maybe less than the incentives to leave? And I mean, I would just, I would just beg people to not beg, but maybe I would urge people to kind of think about put themselves in the shoes of someone graduating in their careers today, right? Like, how would, how would you navigate it? Would you stay at a at your company for 10 years, or even five years, if recruiters look at that as red flag, or would you take the opportunity if given, right? It's a tough market now, but if given the opportunity to go from one company for three years to another company for two years, to gain experience with different leaders and different skills, etc. Would you do it? So, like, I think it's, it's kind of, it's a little bit of an unfair bias I think that we throw at the next generation. Oh, they're job hoppers. And I will say there is some, there's, there are some valid concerns there, and some, some valid feelings of, like, yeah, this generation is you grew up with personalization. You know, in the palm of their hand, they could, like, conquer the world. And so they're very uncomfortable when there's any sort of friction. And I would, I would think that anyone in their early career deals with that discomfort of, like, Oh, wow. Like, this person's speaking to me in a way that I don't like, or I don't like to do this specific task. Like, why, why do I have to do it? But there's, and I will say that is a teachable moment. Like, if they don't learn it the hard way, and they decide to job hop, and they realize the grass isn't always greener, like, that's their lesson to learn, right? Like, you can't control that necessarily, but yeah, that's, that's how I feel. That's, that's what I'm seeing.

Mervyn Dinnen  21:40  
They have always been job hoppers. If I go back to my days as a recruiter, the number of times that if I was talking to as an agency recruiter, as opposed to an in house recruit, I would be talking to a hiring manager, hiring director, and they'd look at a CV of somebody, and if they changed jobs two or three times over the case of maybe six, seven years, it would never be seen as they were building experience. It would just be seen as they're job hoppers, and they'll come in for two years and then leave. And so that that kind of has always been there, I think, even for Gen X and millennials. But the, I think it's, it's more about the the prioritization, now, isn't it, kind of, you know what? Nowadays it's flexibility, it's stability, it's growth, it's security, it it comes across as a bit of a clash. But, I mean, do you see this really as a clash? Because most generation, most of the different generations really want the same things, and is it just that they're expressing it differently?

Danielle Farage  22:45  
Yeah, I so when you really dig into the values of Boomers and Gen Z, what is fascinating is that you'll find a lot of overlap. And you know, I was raised by a boomer mother and a Gen X father. So, yes, my mom is older than my dad, which is very cool, but I will say, you know, the values might be the same, right? Gen Z values, loyalty, but it's in a different way. It's expressed differently than boomers. So Gen Z wants you to take into consideration that we might not stay forever, and that's okay, but while I am here, are you investing in my growth? Are you taking time to get to know me, or at least trying to get to know me? Because not every Gen Z wants to, you know, bring bring their personal life to work. Are you in the same vein? Are you respecting me in the way that I want to be respected? You know, there are so many, but I think the biggest one is really investing in your talent. And if they feel like they've been invested in and if you really do make that effort, I do believe that the loyalty can look different. So even if they don't stay at your company for five years, because it's probably not in their best interest to do so long term, they will still tell their friends, oh, this was a fantastic place to start my career. They will, they will constantly talk about you online as a great place to work. They'll if someone is, you know, I don't know if we were allowed to curse on this podcast, but if someone's shitting on you on TikTok, you know, someone who just got fired, they'll go in the comments, and they'll, they'll speak about their positive experience, and that is, I would say that's worth it in the end, like it really is, like I do, I believe in karma, and, you know, putting out positivity in the world. And I really do believe. Believe that, like that long term speaking well behind your back, is worth the investment in them and the care that you have to put in up front. It really, it's, it's probably more valuable than it ever was because of the internet.

Mervyn Dinnen  25:17  
Yeah, no, I get that. I mean it, yeah. I think all generations kind of want the same thing, but it's expressed differently. So things like mattering, respects, having meaning in your work and everything, I think all generations kind of want that, but it doesn't necessarily come out the right way. It manifests itself in different ways, and the core needs aren't really that different. You know, everybody wants to feel valued. Everybody wants, I say everybody. I think most people want meaningful work. But I think it, what's different is the way they express it, as opposed to not so much the need for it. But I think it's the way different generations express it, and how they react if maybe the situation's become a bit more polarized or or it's kind of their feeling that maybe they're not making the progress they want to make.

Danielle Farage  26:16  
Yeah, it's a great point.

Mervyn Dinnen  26:20  
So really, as with many things, including things like flexible work capability and all the things people see me write about and speak about, it's not really a generational issue. It's it's an issue of leadership capability, or rather a leadership capability challenge. So looking at leadership in a for a multi generational workforce, what do you think a good looks like? And what do you think you know the best leaders that you've seen, what is it they get right?

Danielle Farage  26:53  
Yeah. Oh, such a good question. Well, I would say, What? What often comes up when I speak to senior leaders about Gen Z, and the perception that Gen Z has about leadership is that they underestimate the complexity of leadership decisions and what it takes to be a great leader. And you know, I think that is comprised of the pressure to balance performance and risk and people and all of the things that come along with managing people, which is a lot, and they might interpret constraints, right? If someone comes up to it brings up to their manager, oh, you know, this is a problem. Can't we fix it? Or Can't we do it this way or that way? They might misinterpret constraints as a lack of care. Or, you know, someone just yeah, like, yeah, lack of care, like someone just not caring about them, instead of the organizational reality of, well, this is how we're structured, and there's a process. And like, I don't like it either, but at the same time, like, this is kind of how it is, and we just have to accept it. And so I would say, like, the most common challenge, and the way that I advise leaders to navigate that is really sitting down with people and being willing to explain the why. Because this generation, if there's one question they love, it's why, and that question is really valuable. It's a valuable question for everyone to understand. Like and I was speaking to, I was speaking to a senior leader. He's the founder of a big HR company and so and he often writes about the future of work in HR. And he's he said to me, every young person I talk to, I tell them to constantly ask why, even every employee, because there is something about the question that makes everyone stop and actually have to critically think about the why behind what they're doing, and it's actually a great exercise for everyone, not only for the person learning right? Because there are no stupid questions, especially when you're new to an organization, something I am so grateful that I learned in my first internship at Mindshare, my boss was like, there's no stupid questions. Ask as many as you want and can but I think it's it's an exercise for both the student and the teacher. It really is.

Mervyn Dinnen  29:40  
So what? What advice would we give if you know business leader, or business or HR leader came to you, or you and me and said, you know, we need to improve things. We've we've got, you know, in the workplace, we've got a number of different generations. They're not really mixing that. There's no collaboration.They don't really seem to understand each other. What's, what's the one shift, or one of the big shifts that you would recommend? So this can make a big difference.

Danielle Farage  30:11  
I would say so much of my work is really rooted in this one trait that I call curiosity. And a lot of the generational issues that come to a head are really about going from assumption to curiosity. So instead of asking, why are they like this and constantly complaining behind someone's back? I would ask what context is driving this behavior, and that one shift can reduce defensiveness, can increase alignment and really unlock better decisions amongst everyone, the team, the individual, the manager, however you want to look at it, the organization. And the way that I like to engage in that kind of conversation is really to think about the 3 C's. Have you connected, have you clarified, and have you at least tried to co create solutions? Those are my 3 C's of managing Gen Z talent, little plug. But it really, it's really rooted in that one, that one word of curiosity, what's your answer to that?

Mervyn Dinnen  31:51  
My answer is not dissimilar to yours, because obviously we one of the things that we're starting to do between us is, is, you know, get organizations kind of approaching us to maybe have a sit down with with kind of some managers and stuff, to talk about generation, generational differences at work, and kind of how to overcome them and how to create a more harmonious working environment. So that's one of the things we do, which is why intergenerational conversations are so important. So it starts from a basis of, we're all together, as opposed to this group are different to that group and different to that group. But I think strategically, what's most important to organizations is kind of a cultural alignment, but I mean in terms of kind of retention, performance and things like that. I'm guessing, at the moment, it's a bit mixed because of the advent of AI and how rapidly it's getting involved, or it's working its way into everything we do on a day to day basis. So, you know, adaptability, I think, is possibly the big word that is possibly also going to be harder for people to really implement and bring into their organization, because if they're particularly structured, or if they are used to working in a certain way, it's this kind of adaptability and building work around humans, as opposed to the AI, that I think will be a bit of a problem, but one where, you know, I think that Gen Z and Gen alpha will be able to help, because they're coming at it very fresh. I mean, how do you see, I suppose, see, the role AI will be playing in this?

Danielle Farage  33:43  
Yeah, I would say, you know, I, I was just at several conferences: South by, Unleash, Transform. And one of the solutions to the whole AI challenge, or, you know, bringing it into the organization has been for companies to do like smaller like Town Hall type meetings and for people to present AI solutions that they found and whatnot, and like workarounds to common problems and challenges within the organization. And I would say that within those meetings, they will probably encounter some generational differences and and similarities and ways that generations work better together. And I would say, if I had to guess, intergenerational connection will be a bigger topic and a bigger focus for organizations moving forward, because they see the potential of a Boomer and a Gen Z getting in the room and actually talking about a challenge and trying to solve it together. So it's already something that I've spoken to the CHRO of Toshiba, I think his name is Jason. I spoke to him after a panel of his. He said he's already doing he's always done these intergenerational meetings where he just puts, puts them in a room together and sees what happens, right? And I would hope that more organizations want to do it in a more structured forum. It's something I've been talking to a number of different leaders about, but in terms of AI and how I think it's changing the moment, I would say there are three big things that I'm seeing. You know, there's obviously the challenge of retention and talent attraction and misreading expectations when it comes to AI, right? Like we have this thing that's been happening where entry level talent and entry level roles are being cut and slashed every which way, and so the expectations that then, that then puts on the teams themselves, whether it's double or doubling or tripling their scope, that I've seen that happen a lot a lot of people have been talking about about that to me. There's also the, you know, cultural cohesion that is, is a challenge right now, you know, a lot of erosion of trust and culture because of the still, the RTO decisions that have been happening, the AI being jammed down people's throats. I don't say that from my opinion, I'm seeing memes online that have been widely viral and shared, because that is the perception. But then also this, you know, what gives me hope is that the generations can come together, right? And AI has very much the need for people to adapt, but I will, I will say, when you have Gen Z, who has the digital fluency to pick up any tool and start using it, and you also have older generations who have that context and the ability to judge challenges and be strategic when you put those people together again, I think there, there's so much potential, and I really do believe that the future belongs to companies where generations teach each other.

Mervyn Dinnen  37:23  
Yes, I think that. I'm glad you said that, because I was thinking through kind of how to structure the conversation today, I do prepare for these chats. And the one of the things I thought of was was, you know, open, live conversations between people and generations is much more important than strict organizational policies, frameworks and things like that. And it's how to actually, I suppose, have that open dialog. And again, you know, you you the beginning we talked about when, when I started in the world of work, that would be, you know, that kind of open conversation probably would never have happened. It was kind of, your senior management, senior leadership, your team manager, would, would, would, would effectively make the decisions, and you just, you know, adhere to them, whereas this kind of, you know, why are we doing it that way? Now, isn't there an easier way to do it? That kind of thing wouldn't have really got you any brownie points. It would, it would have indicated that possibly you're a bit of a rebel who might have to be closely managed and managed out the business if you had a bit of a following or something. But the I think that the open dialog, which we're now all a lot more comfortable with and maybe things like social media have helped that over the last 15 years, say, of people talking openly to each other, and not the deference of different levels and job titles and things, as I believe, from what I see day to day and speaking to people and going out to conferences and things, I think that that, that that has been eroded. And I think that, possibly, to wrap up a bit, the real takeaway is it's not, it's not about fixing generations. It's not about kind of, you know, there is a multi generational workforce. This is the framework. This is how you have a successful one. It's kind of understanding, it's understanding people's different needs, people's different perspectives, also the contributions, the different contributions people can make in different ways. Because the future of work isn't about one generation. It's kind of built by a multi generational workforce, sorry, an intergenerational workforce.

Danielle Farage  39:47  
I definitely agree. I will say, you know, something I brought to a stage, I think, like almost two years ago, at this ISG summit. I was talking, I was on a multi generational panel about AI and during the conversation in work, and I said that one of the points, the point that was most well received really, was that, if we're using these AI tools, wouldn't it be great if we took the time that we're saving with those tools, right? Some people are feeling like they're they're working like three, you know, with the three hours faster than they were before, right? You take those three hours and let's say you give one back to your family, you give one back to your team and being a manager, and then you give one back to creating a space where generations can come together and talk about how they're using AI, how they're navigating the RTO policy, addressing the elephants in the room that no one's willing to talk about, but taking that time and investing it back into the organization, I really do believe will increase engagement, increase retention, decrease turnover, decrease burnout, and whatever you learn from those conversations, you then invest it back into the organization. It's really like I deeply, deeply believe and refuse to think otherwise. You know, I usually have strong opinions, loosely held, but this one's strongly held, that the future of work, you know, when you have those conversations about what's working for each generation, and you're willing to listen more often than not, more than that one generation will benefit from those conversations, right? Like if a mother is dealing or a or a parent is dealing with a challenge posed by being a working parent, and you're able to fix that, you then are able to fix that for not just that one millennial parent, but also the Gen Z er who will become a parent at that company, or the next, you know, Gen Z, or who will become a parent at the company. And so I deeply believe that the future of work won't be built by one generation winning. It'll be built by generations understanding each other well enough to build something better together.

Mervyn Dinnen  42:37  
I can't think of a better way to end the conversation. You've summed it up in a nutshell. Danielle, as always, is absolute pleasure to talk to you. If anybody's listening to this and and doesn't know who you are or how to connect with you. What's the best way?

Danielle Farage  42:58  
You can follow me at Danielle Farage, like garage with an F, on LinkedIn, or visit my website, it's just daniellefarage.com Easy peasy.

Mervyn Dinnen  43:09  
Okay, and at the very end, I will put in my usual thing that I say when we have a conversation together, that for listeners in the UK and Europe, Danielle is not related to any UK politician who happens to have the same name. Danielle, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Danielle Farage  43:29  
Thank you, Mervyn, great to see you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai