Trish  0:00  
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Steve  0:52  
Welcome back to the At Work in America show. My name is Steve Boese, joined by Trish Steed, of course. Trish, hello.

Trish  0:57  
Hello, how are you?

Steve  0:59  
I am well. Thank you very much. On a Tuesday, recording this after a long weekend, but yeah, feel really good today. How about yourself?

Trish  1:07  
Yeah, did you have a good weekend?

Steve  1:09  
I did. I did.

Trish  1:11  
Anything fun and exciting?

Steve  1:14  
No, which was awesome. I didn't do anything fun or exciting.

Trish  1:18  
Well, I needed the extra day off because I did something fun and exciting. I went to BTS in Las Vegas, new just announced just won artist of the year over every popular artist there is right now. So, yeah, I'm BTS to the to the hilt above 100%.

Steve  1:39  
I did hear about that. That sounds awesome, and I'm glad you did have fun. Hopefully, you got some rest and are ready for action here this week. I am at H3HR Advisors, and that's my week-ish segue into today's topic. We're going to talk about performance and well-being, but in a slightly different way, right. Well, being and performance connected together, right, a little bit in just kind of how we might need to rethink, right, of what it means to be taking care of yourself and optimizing your health and your work and your overall, you know, just approach to things in order to really be the best you can be, both at work and at home, and in your community, and everywhere else you want to be your best. We are so excited to welcome today Nicole Elizabeth Ward. She is an Eon executive leader, a performance strategist, and author. Her book is Biohacking for the Sales Athlete, which is a fascinating book, and I'm not really in sales really at all, but you don't have to be in sales to be interested in this book, by the way, either, so it should be just biohacking for all of us, maybe is the subtitle, but Nicole, welcome to the show. How are you?

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  2:50  
Yes, thank you so much. Happy to be here. You're right, I should have titled it Biohacking for the corporate athlete, right?

Steve  2:58  
But still, the, yeah, some won't get into this, but yeah, I, as I was going through it, I'm like, yeah, no, this makes this makes really good sense for, for anyone, honestly, right. And so, uh, but before we sort of dive into some of the details, Nicole, let's learn a little bit more about you, particularly, and you tell the story in the book, so I'm allowed to ask it, right, it's public knowledge. I'd love for you to share a little bit about that, that big moment that happened to you right as you were like really getting going, right? You're successful, you're churning away your sales leader, right, all the things, and all of a sudden, boom, something happens. I'd love for you to talk about that as well. 

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  3:30  
Sure. And thank you for the question. You know, it was a critical, a critical point in my life, and a real turning point, looking back, and you know, to your point, my resume was great. I was crushing, you know, crushing it in all the ways that we think, as corporate citizens, we need to crush it. I was successful on paper, my bank account was successful, I had a great team, I was climbing the ladder, and I was also incredibly exhausted, burning the burning at both ends. I was not at all, I brain fog. I'd literally fallen asleep at a very important client meeting, nodded off properly, and it all culminated when I was jetting between meetings up in the Bay Area, and I got cut off in traffic, and I ended up rolling my Land Rover, and thank God no one was seriously injured in the incident, as I put in the book, but I broke two fingers on my left hand, and all I could think about as I was climbing out of my Land Rover, you know, the side window, right? It was side down, and I'm crawling out, and I'm like, "Where's my phone? I've got to get my phone. I've got to call and let my boss know I'm not going to make this really important meeting. And so that was a huge wake-up call, and it was one where, you know, I. I had to pause, right, and I think there's so much of our culture in Americana where it's just drive, drive, drive until we hit something, and that was me hitting something, literally and figuratively, and that started me on a journey of really understanding, looking under the hood again, another car analogy, but really looking under the hood and trying to understand what was broken, you know. How had I let it get that far? And I started under looking into nutrition and understanding diet. I was at that point, I was about 60 pounds, 50 to 60 pounds overweight. I had the lab work of literally a 55 year old woman, and I was 35 and I met actually a trainer who had been, had worked for my company, and she had stepped away from corporate America and said, 'I'm going to go be a personal trainer. Well, I started working with her, and it was fascinating. Back then, we called it naturopathic medicine, but it was essentially going to a functional medicine doctor, looking at my labs, and you know, there's that phrase, once you know, you can't not know, that was the case, and so it started just to open my eyes to, like, what am I eating every day, how am I taking care of myself, how am I nourishing myself, and so that started me on my journey, and then it started really sort of morphed into biohacking, which you know I obviously use in the title of my book, because I am an avid biohacker, but it's it's been a journey of wellness and health and optimization, and getting to a place where I really wanted to share the journey with others, so that they could learn from all the mistakes that I've made, and I feel like if I could do it, you know, I'm 56 years old now, and if I can do it over some of the very challenging years that we go through, especially as women, that anyone can do it. So, so that's sort of a shorter answer, but yeah.

Steve  6:56  
Thank you, Nicole.

Trish  6:57  
Yeah, thank you for sharing that story. I mean, I'm serious. I was like trying not to tear up as you're saying it. It resonates definitely with me. I think probably with Steve. You know, we're similar in age to you now, but I'm thinking back to myself at that same age, and I wonder what it is about corporate America, especially that like instills that drive to the level of burnout, when you talk about the fact that, like, rolling your car was what it took for you to, like, hit that wall and notice, are you seeing so this is over 20 years, right? And you've been studying this a long time. I'd love to hear what you're seeing in terms of, is corporate America still in that place it was 20 years ago, for the most part, or are you starting to see them hacking, biohacking, how they relate to the physiology of this?

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  7:51  
You know, it's such a good question. I think part of it is, I think it's gotten a little bit better, but inherently in American culture, we mistake adrenaline for for performance, right. We are wired that for output, for and I've lived it and breathed it my whole career. KPIs, MBOs, strategic planning, you know, nowhere in there do we talk about recovery, and that's why the language of my book is about being an athlete, because we look at some of the elite performers and elite athletes that are out in the world, and they, you know, an elite athlete would never go into game day undernourished, you know, under, you know, under slept, under-resourced, right? They would never be, you know, they would never show up with brain fog and mentally checked out, they're going to bring their A game, but somehow we've made it okay, you know, for executives in our culture to celebrate being like, oh, I'm super busy, I haven't slept, I skipped my meal, I'm always available, anyone can reach me, and somewhere along the way, you know, we've started treating exhaustion, frankly, is kind of evidence of like importance, and that it's some sort of badge of honor, and you know, we see recovery is slowing down, and we see slowing down as weakness, when in fact the irony is that recovery is the opposite of work, it's actually recovery, excuse me, recovery is not the opposite of work. Recovery actually supports work, right? And it's something that athletes know all the time, which is that adaptation happens during recovery. So I think we're starting to get it in answer to your question, but I don't know that we fully have, because there's so many, there's still so many rewards in place for achieving all those things, right, intensity, and you know, you know, revenue, and, and I think those milestones are still out there, as opposed to really, you know, dropping in and allowing people the space to balance, so.

Trish  10:04  
Yeah. Steve, I know you probably got another question here.

Steve  10:08  
Yeah, it becomes hard, right? I think it becomes difficult, right, in the corporate world, certainly, because much of what you're talking about, Nicole's very difficult to measure, right? It's easy to measure quota and profit margin, and you know, operational statistics in metrics, etc. It's, it's, we know this in HR forever, right, Trish? It's, it's harder to measure. Hey, are people showing up to function at their, in their best capacity? Are their best selves? Are they, you know, how is their health, right? We can go track healthcare claims, I guess, right, but we can track absenteeism, but it's still hard to draw that direct line between, hey, we're going to promote culturally, right, we're going to promote healthier, is even the right word, but just a different approach to, right, how we hope people will manage their lives and optimize for both performance and recovery. Right, I think the recovery point, Nicole, is such a great point. Like, we don't talk about that enough. We've done a ton of content right over the years on wellness and well-being. I don't think we've talked once, Trisha, I can't remember, talk once about sleep. I don't know why, but we haven't, and I think that's even a fundamental kind of area, Nicole. I'd love for you to maybe comment on that just a little bit, like, and even if it's from a personal perspective, how you have you hacked your own kind of approach to getting rest and recovery to operate at your, your highest level?

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  11:39  
Sure, I think you know whether we, whether we can recognize this currently or not, and whether we've arrived there. I mean, again, this is why I wrote the book. I believe that, you know, our nervous systems, our foundation to our health, you know, leaders included in that, right? And, and I feel like we've, we've often approached, you know, leadership and in the executive world, in the corporate world, through this lens of mindset, but we forget that actually it's physiological first, right? I think physiology is the infrastructure of health and leadership, and so if our underlying systems are exhausted, chronically stressed, or we're sleep-deprived, you know, we're we're going to be operating in the state of constant activation, and it becomes a lot more difficult, frankly, to be our best selves, right, because all of a sudden we're not as patient as we could be, we're not as creative as we could be, we're certainly not emotionally regulated. And are we going to be making the best decisions that we can be? And so I think you know leadership and being our best selves isn't just a thinking exercise, it's the whole unit, and sleep, to your question is a huge part of that, you know, resting ourselves, and again, not just recovery, which is important, but also sleep, you know. It is, if you know, people always ask me after reading the book, they're like, "Okay, so where should I start? And I always say, "Well, don't boil the ocean, none of us can boil the ocean, right? We can't do all the things, but if you were going to ask me, Nicole, what are one or two things that I can do that I can anchor to that will move the needle, that will iterate me forward, then that first is going to be sleep, and it is, and I think any doctor, any functional medicine doctor, any health practitioner is going to tell you that, because that is it's it's foundational and there are many things and I cover these in the book that we can excuse me do to to help our sleep, which then in turn help our recovery, because they are connected, right? So, but you know, sleep for me dialing that in was critical, and you know it's everything for me, from making sure that screens are off an hour before bedtime, that my room is like a cave, that it's pitch black, I've got earplugs in, nothing to disturb, the room is nice and cool, you know, that I wear a wearable device, so that I'm getting that feedback loop, you know, hence biohacker here on that feedback loop on my data, you know, so you start to notice patterns, right? Whether it's, you know, gosh, I shouldn't have had that glass of wine at 9o'clock or I shouldn't have eaten so close to bedtime, etc. right? So, you know, I share all of that because it's a journey, right? We don't want to beat ourselves up for all the things we're not doing, because we're all really good at that, which doesn't help sleep or recovery, by the way, but instead looking at the one or two things that I can do that will help me move the needle. So.

Trish  14:51  
I think it's interesting too, as you're talking about it, Nicole, I'm thinking sleep is really the result, right? It's not, oh, I'm just going to sleep more. It's all those little things you're mentioning that are the levers that you can push and pull, and I think sometimes when you're laying there at three in the morning not sleeping, it feels like you don't have control of your sleep, but if you really kind of just slow that down and listen to what you just said about look at all of the elements that we actually could control to help ourselves from a physiological standpoint. Until this book, I honestly can say, in all of my career, of coming up on 30 years, I have not thought of not just well-being, but my own personal performance in this way. So, I think, you know, at the beginning, we talk about this isn't just for salespeople, it is for every person who works, basically, because you're balancing all these things, and and there are a lot of different things you can push or pull or start doing or stop doing, and I wonder, like, how does that manifest in the way that we communicate throughout our career, I know you talked a little bit in the book about sort of the how stress changes communication, how exhausted leaders show up to make these decisions. Maybe share a little teaser for the book on what do you talk about there in terms of that communication and trust building for exhausted people.

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  16:21  
Totally, I mean, if we're dysregulated, we're not going to be our best selves, for our colleagues, for our teams, for our partners, for our children. And so, recognizing again not to beat ourselves up and not to try to boil the ocean, but recognizing and starting to drop in to the physiology of how we're being right, and I think recognizing that, like, you know, again, if we're showing up, you know, people think that by slowing down there's a weakness, slowing down, actually, it's one of the greatest competitive advantages that we have, if you want to produce 30% more, slow down and allow yourself to drop in and recover right into your question. There's so many things that we can do throughout the day when we think, oh my god, I'm gripping the bat, I've got to drive, drive, drive, I've got to, you know, I've got multiple deadlines, but when we stop, you know, the teaser that you mentioned, and just set an alarm on your phone. I have alarms set all day long on my phone to remind me to stop and breathe, you know, just to do, and we can all do that at our desks, right? Stopping and just giving ourselves one minute where we just connect with our breath and remember we have feet, you know, to drop in and put your hand on your heart, just a moment, you know, just taking a minute or two to do that. Or people are like, "Gosh, you know, I can't wake up any earlier to get my workout in. That's okay. Put some bands in the corner of your office, and when you're on a Zoom call, sit there and do this with the bands, or just pop off video and stay on audio, and just pace at your desk, or do 25 air squats. I call it exercise snacking, you know. Where you like it before you know it, at the end of your day, you know, you've like, gosh, I did 40 minutes of movement just because I decided to pace for my 30 minute call. You just pop off video again, and you're, you know, you're on the call, but you're just walking, you get all of a sudden you've got 3000 steps in, so it's we beat ourselves up so much by thinking we have to do everything, so we end up doing nothing, when in fact, if we could just give ourselves grace and go, okay, I'm going to do these two things, I'm going to breathe, set an alarm to breathe three times today, or I'm going to do those, you know, breaks of like doing some air squats, you know, or you know, sit wall sets, or I'm going to put some bands in my office and just, you know, you know, do a little mini workout. I'm going to take the stairs for five minutes in between my important calls, right. So there's all sorts of ways that in the book again, tips and tactics of how we can weave all that in, but it is, it's so important for us to regulate, especially if you're in a leadership position, because being, you know, being physiologically regulated and balanced, it means that you're creating instead of an environment of like anxiety or unpredictability or urgency or pressure, you're actually creating a space of safety, and that's what I believe real leaders do, is create a safe, a space of trust, a space of in order to innovate, and for people to feel safe to take risks, we have to emanate that sense of balance and groundedness ourselves, and all of these things help us do that.

Trish  19:49  
Thank you for sharing that. I tell you, Nicole, I want you to have, like, an app like Nicole in my pocket, because I'm not even kidding, like just just listening to these suggestions, I feel like almost silly that I've not thought of how to operationalize my own well-being. Like, we, Steve, Steve and I talk about this all the time. We teach others how to do this, but I just love your, you're coming at it from a whole different direction, and I think it's so impactful that we're, we're open to these new ideas, right? I love the idea of having alarms. I love the, like, why am I not doing this, Steve? Is it resonating with you, like me? I don't know.

Steve  20:28  
Yeah, I think I really.. I think it is. And I think it's interesting, because, like, in the corporate world, right, we're all operating.. if we're in the corporate world, right, we're operating inside of a culture, inside of an organization made up of a lot of people, often it can be even, even for leaders, depending on on their positioning organization. A lot of what that environment is is just beyond our control, right? And right, right, sometimes you work in a really large organization, which has a certain type of culture, and I worked in one where you know, executive presentations were like panic, right, for 100 people for a week, right, when we had to present whatever xyz to the person way up at the top, yeah, and there wasn't anything you could do about it. I was not going to be able to effectively change that, but as Nicole has rightly pointed out, there were things I could have been doing for myself, certainly, that would have helped me manage those processes, deal with them better, recover better, show up better, right, that I can totally control, and I don't, I don't have to rely on some cultural intervention or some official, you know, program of well-being, or anything to have an impact, and I think that's a really important lesson as well. There's a lot of self, and maybe that's from sales background, Nicole. Sales people have to do this right, they're they're often kind of on their own, right, and go get results, Nicole, or your or else, right. And it's a different kind of world you're coming from.

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  22:01  
Totally, I mean, it's a crucible of its own kind, and I do spend a little bit of time in the book, you know. The first book, obviously, my platform was called The Executive Athlete, but my first book, I had to write what I know, which is my tribe, which is sales. But I think, you know, overall, to your point, I think the culture of companies is like the nervous system of the executive leadership team at scale, like that's what I've seen, you know, you can absolutely look and sense the culture of a company, and it's an indicator of of what that C suites regulate physiological regulation is, and I think it's something that is really important, but going back to your sales question, you know, I did grow up in sales, it is incredibly stressful, right, and I think it's, it's, it's so competitive that we, and we again, I've told every sales exec that I know, especially after writing this book, that, like, if you really want a competitive advantage, let up off of the gas pedal and actually allow, again, allow that recovery time. You're going to come into those really big pitch meetings, you're going to come into those really big opportunities balanced right in and grounded, and giving your with a sense of presence if you're regulated. If you've been up late night, you know, up at night, the night before, late. If you've had too many glasses of wine, if you've eaten too close to your bedtime, your sleep is not what it could have been, and you're going to go into a big pitch meeting the next day, you are going to have brain fog, you're not going to be at your best, right. So, there's, you know, quite a bit of real estate in the book that I am dedicated to really talking about tips and tricks and tactics and things that you can do to sort of, you know, work around some of the requirements for sales folks that you know, because we do have to network, we do have to be out in the marketplace, but there's ways you can do it and do it in a really healthy way. So.

Trish  24:12  
Yeah, my question as a follow-up to that, Nicole, is going to be around you mentioned earlier, we reward this behavior, Steve, you're talking about something I've experienced in my work world too, where if you're at that executive level, not only are you pushed that way, but every other exec is pushed the same way, and so when we reward executive, especially performance, our manager and above performance, for working through the night, staying past when your boss leaves. I worked in professional services firm for a long time, and it was a, it was truly a badge of honor. If you were up at 3am and working and one of your partners asked for something and you could deliver, so I think my when it comes to rewarding that behavior, I would say, what is something? One thing, whether you're an HR leader or you're a business owner, what's one thing you can do to shift that? What is there something else that could be rewarding instead of that sort of harmful behavior? Because I'm afraid, like the generations coming in, they don't buy into that, but Gen X sure does. We were raised that way, and we're perpetuating what can I do to stop perpetuating this with my teams, right?

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  25:33  
Right, I think it's.. it's a great question, and because I think for every company it's a little bit different, right. And so, depending on your environment, what your company is solving for, how that allowance for recovery or balance shows up. But I think it starts on an individual level with our own agency around going to our boss and going, hey, you know, I can't control what you do with the company, but for me, as an individual performer at this company, here are the two things I need to then ultimately run through a wall for you, right? Like, if you give me a sense of maybe it's psychological safety or maybe it's a grace to take that, you know, a little bit of an extended lunch hour to do that, to you know, to do some exercise snacking, or maybe it's the grace to have a certain day a week, or half a day a week, where we work from home, whatever that is for you, right? Depends, like I said, but finding out on an individual level, what do I need to allow myself to recharge and recover, and make sure I'm communicating that upwards, so that I'm taking care of, so that I've got that, and that communication I think is really important. And then top down, I think from a company perspective, it's recognizing and owning what is our culture, what are we asking of people? What, you know, when we, when we get our, you know, our, we get those, those surveys back from, you know, from teams, what are they saying is, you know, is is the rub, the, you know, the area of opportunity, you know, where this is sort of, you know, and where we're missing the mark, right? So I think it's top down, and I think it's bottom up, but I think each of us as individuals has a real ownership and responsibility to take care of ourselves, and, and you know, it's not just just with our bosses, but communicating it also down with our teams to the degree that we have teams.

Trish  27:37  
Yeah. No, it's great again, great suggestions, and I think the only thing I would probably add is taking more agency. If you're not getting those needs met when you express them, it's okay to go somewhere else. I think there's a little bit of a stigma still about pushing through, right? But maybe sometimes we stay at positions too long where we're really not being taken care of, and they're, and it's not going to change, you know, like Steve, if he had a stayed at that company, I'm sure it's probably still running that same way.

Steve  28:07  
It's, it is, you know, fine, but it's, it's what it is, right? So, I bet they'd be doing better, had, if they made some, some changes, right, and how they... 

Trish  28:19  
Right, but if you see, also, I think, is like, yeah, you can't, you can't change everyone and everything, right? So it's sort of also knowing, all right, here is my boundary a little bit, and then maybe finding a company where the culture does align, where it's going to care for you or allow you to care for yourself, really, right?

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  28:36  
I think it's, you know, stress changes everything, and stress to everyone is different, right. So, again, it goes back to that, you know. I know, for me as an employee, I mean, we all report to someone, you know, I know what I need to say. Look to my boss, I will run through that wall for you, I will over deliver and be ecstatic to do it, but I need these two things, and so I think we all need to find that, but I think it's also recognizing that top-down piece to your point, is that what is stress due to a culture, right? I mean, when any of us are stressed, our focus narrows, we're not the best listeners in the world, we're not as curious as we could be, our patience goes out the window, and I think our communications become this sort of transaction, as opposed to really dropping in and actually, you know, connecting with people. So, I think, you know, companies at large have to ask ourselves, generationally, to your point, you know, as a Gen X, or we know what it doesn't look like, but I think younger generations, they are helping to shape what it could and should look like, which is, you know, very different than it has, and the way we grew up, right?

Trish  29:51  
Yeah, I hear, like, again, people who are in leadership who are in, in our age range, it's like, if you feel a little bit like, well, we had to pay our dues, though. This way, like, they should have to do it too, and that's part of the cycle. We almost get brainwashed into, like, this is the way to do it. I was recently talking about, so when I was kind of coming up, Jack Welch and his sort of approach with GE was definitely like the way up or out, and always cut at least 10% of your workforce every year, like on and on, right, all the things, and it's weird now, being 20 years later, and talking to, like, my kids and their friends about work, and thinking, like, I still kind of think that old way of doing it is normal from time to time, and I hold myself to that level of performance, and I really, I'm doing, I'm often doing myself or Steve, or our business a disservice if I'm not also evolving with this caregiving for yourself. I think we talk, Steve, we talk about caregiving for everybody else, right?

Steve  30:54  
Yeah.

Trish  30:55  
I love Nicole that you are bringing all of these little elements of well-being and caregiving and trust and all the things we talk about from a workforce perspective, and you're just like putting a spotlight right on it. I can't thank you enough. I mean, the book is something I just.. I feel like everybody needs this book, and not saying it because you're sitting in front of me, I'm saying because, like, I really.. it just all.. it kind of like I feel like we have all these little silos of things we all work on in HR, man. You just zoom it all into one cohesive thought. So, I appreciate it so much.

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  31:30  
No, I love hearing that, and it warms my heart, because the goal, you know, again, I have a very full-time day job. The goal with this was just to, was to really help, right? Because I did. You know, I grant, I was a grinder, I was a driver until I wasn't. And that happens with all of us eventually. We all hit the wall where we go, wow. You know, what does it cost me in my relationships? What does it cost me as a parent? What did it has it cost me as a leader, and again, all those KPIs, and all the revenue in the world. When, when the rubber starts meeting the road, and that's a late 40s, early 50s, all of a sudden you look around, you're like, wow, I've got miles on these tires, and these tires are ready to fall off, and then it's, it's never too late, but it's there's such a window of opportunity to start incorporating again, don't have to boil the ocean, but picking the two or three things, maybe it's sleep, maybe it's an app that you wear that holds you accountable for what you're, you know, maybe it's a, you know, it could be, you know, an application of just tracking your food, so you're a little bit healthier, it could be these little things, maybe it's just more movement throughout your day. It's just about not beating ourselves up, recognizing where we are, and going, okay, what are the two or three pivots that I can make that will, you know, anchor me to moving things forward in a gracious way. And I think it's so important that we start asking ourselves these questions and really doing that evaluation before we hit a wall, which is again what happened to me, that I would try to help you know, you know, hopefully you know others not have to do.

Steve  33:12  
For sure. Nicole, thank you for spending some time with us today. It's Nicole Elizabeth Ward. The book is, we've been talking about it a lot, it's called Biohacking for the Sales Athlete. We'll put links in the show notes to that. I tell you, this has been a great conversation, really eye-opening, and I feel, you know, just personally, yeah, I could take some really important takeaways from this, but I think folks who are listening to this too can not only think about obviously for themselves, but also think about the kind of organization you want to operate in, the kinds of things you want to encourage, the kinds of leaders you want to support and foster, and the workplaces we want to create where we can all really be our best selves and succeed and feel good while doing it. So, Nicole, thanks again for checking in with us today. I really, really appreciate it.

Nicole Elizabeth Ward  34:05  
Absolutely, and they're welcome anyone would like to listen to the podcast, which is, you know, the Executive Athlete Podcast, or, you know, Instagram, and all of those things, and LinkedIn, they're welcome to explore my content and reach out with any questions. But thank you both for having me, and so grateful, and so grateful to get to know you both.

Steve  34:23  
Yeah, great to see you, Trish. Good stuff, Trish. Get out there today, like be your best self, that's what I'm looking for from you today.

Trish  34:29  
If I can't have an app like Nicole in my pocket, I'm going to be having her podcast on repeat, because.

Steve  34:36  
That's right, put that in your pocket, perfect.

Trish  34:39  
Right? I think Nicole, I mean this so sincerely. Like, we do shows all the time, we have guests all the time. What you really said, it just really touched me personally. And I just.. I'm really grateful. I feel like I'm hearing your message right at the right time, and I'm hopeful that our listeners are going to have that same experience. So, for any listener out there, please. Go get this book. It's not just something you're going to read once and put to the side. It's going to just bit by bit change the way you show up for your life, I think. So, so grateful for you, Nicole.

Steve  35:13  
Trish, thank you. Remember, go to HRHappyhour.net for all the show archives, subscribe YouTube, all the podcast places, everywhere else. My name is Steve Boese. So, so grateful for you to listen to the show today, and for our guests, for Trish. We'll see you next time. And bye for now.

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