Trish 0:00 The HR Happy Hour Network is proudly supported by Workuman. Every year, companies spin their wheels searching externally for senior leaders. Meanwhile, their next VP is already on their payroll, recognized by peers, but overlooked by the org chart. Future leaders by Workhuman fixes that using AI and real-time recognition data. Future leaders identify your highest potential talent four years ahead of schedule, before they burn out, check out, or get picked up by someone who saw what you missed. Build smarter, promote confidently, build your best people, future leaders only from Workhuman. Learn more at Workhuman.com Thanks for joining us. Steve 0:52 Welcome back to the At Work in America show. My name is Steve Boese. I'm with Trish Steed. Trish, good morning. How are you? Trish 0:58 I'm fantastic. How are you? Steve 1:00 I am well. I am extremely excited to welcome our guest today, Mr. Ben Brooks. Welcome, Ben. How are you? Ben Brooks 1:08 Glad to be here. A little tired from staying up late, not just to watch the next win, but to troll social media and find all of the great memes and celebrations around the city. So, but I'm bringing my full energy. I'm an iced coffee, and I'm excited to be here. Steve 1:22 Beautiful to see you. Yeah, Ben, I'm a Knick fan, lifelong. We are recording this the morning after the Knicks famous game for win, so yeah, we're all excited about that. But Trish, you're especially excited because right before we walked and welcomed Ben, we did a little, you did a little search through HR Happy Hour Network show archives and uncovered a curious fact, which I'd love for you to share with our listeners and with Ben. Trish 1:48 And with Ben. So, Ben has been on the show eight times. This is his triumphant reappearance on our show. So, Ben, ninth, ninth, can you believe that? Yeah, I mean it's Steve started it 17 years ago, and so yeah, I think I've been on now. Steve 2:09 I was only 12 years old. Yes, I did exactly. Ben Brooks 2:13 Did it on AM radio. Steve 2:15 Scout project? Trish 2:17 Sure, you're the longest attending guest that we've ever had, so congratulations. Ben Brooks 2:24 Well, I want to keep that streak going, so thank you for telling me that. Yeah, it's a delight to be here. Trish 2:29 We've got to go really big though for the next one, because it's, it's 10, I mean, you get to. Ben Brooks 2:33 I think maybe we do that in person, that's my proposal. Steve 2:36 That's right. Ben Brooks 2:36 We do that in person, and we make a big celebration out of it, but I will tell you, we've, I met a lot of great people by being on this podcast. We, we actually, we had a new customer that started with us last year that listened to one of the episodes that was five years old. Steve 2:49 Beautiful. Ben Brooks 2:50 And reached out on LinkedIn and said, I love the episode, Trish and Steve are fabulous. We had a call, talk to, they talked to our sales team, they became a customer, and we're developing leaders across many states, and that's from the HR Happy Hour Network. Steve 3:03 Little Google search results, getting a little good job on your CO. Ben Brooks 3:07 Karen. Shout out. So, yes. Steve 3:10 So Ben, for folks, I don't know who would this be, but we do get new listeners all the time. It's been maybe about a year since you've been on. Maybe give us an update. You are the founder and CEO of Pilot. I'd love to hear what's happening with Pilot, of course. And then, of course, you've got your own podcast, which is phenomenal, and you're doing great things with too. We could talk about that some, but let's just get a little quick update from you. And how are things in Ben's world? Ben Brooks 3:31 Yeah, well, everyone here in New York City, I live in Manhattan, and I'm a former senior vice president of HR in the corporate world, and that's where I met Trish and Steve through the HR technology conference and HR evolution and other things, and I have been the founder and CEO of my own company, Pilot, and we provide leadership and management development services and culture consultancy to help organizations perform faster and achieve their strategy by aligning people in place to what they need to achieve in the market. We're 50 plus people, we operate all around the world, we just hit our 10 year last month, being a company diverse-owned company, and, and you know, really proud of our work. And then, you know, in Pilot, we decided we needed to get value out to more people that weren't our customers, and so we created a podcast called The Lift, so theliftpod.com, it's on all the podcast platforms, but it's a show about modern leadership, and our focus is a weekly guest show featuring experts on everything from judgment to conflict to neurodiversity to what we can learn about entertaining kids to get adults' attention, and you know, all sorts of being a lifelong learner, toxic bosses. We have a two-part episode about how to fire people and how to do it ethically and thoughtfully, and that's coming up with an attorney and a psychologist, and so, but it's, but it's 35 minutes every Tuesday, check it out, and it's about, you know, unusual angles and unexpected sources of insight around modern leadership. Trish 4:55 I love that it's, it's such a nice mix of just information. That is something you can act on, and then also maybe some inspiration as well, right? Inspirational stories and things that are actually feel good, but I love the idea of having sort of those experts coming on to tell you how to, how to terminate someone properly. That's a really difficult thing in and of itself. Ben Brooks 5:19 We're talking about kind of that, Trish, that the middle lane, not, not the, you know, someone punched someone at the office party or stole money, and not the mass riff, where we're doing that, it's kind of that middle lane of we've outgrown someone, or you know, they're just kind of underperformed, but they're not bad or toxic, is how do you do that thoughtfully and ethically, so you can resolve the kind of guilt and anxiety of the manager, protect the brand of the company, but also support a human being in their economic security and safety, and helping them in psychologically cleanly, so they can bounce into a place they can be more successful. So it was one of the.. it's surprisingly, I told my producer when we first started, I want to do an episode on firing. They're like, what, like leadership and firing? No, seem like it's like, no part of being a leader is like a sports team, you know. This is not a family, you swap out players because your goal is to win, but you can do that thoughtfully. So, we've got a, we got people meditating now. We have a Vedic meditation episode, and I'm a daily meditator for 15 years, and so I now have a bunch of people who've started meditating as a result. So, in this crazy world, it's a good way to get your eyes off the screen and get your thoughts out of your head, so yeah. Trish 6:22 Well, it's exciting to have a podcast. I think Steve would agree, it's you not only meet really interesting people, but you learn different techniques or things you can do for your own health or for your family's health. So, yeah, it's such a good way to learn and to do it in a community of people that you're drawing together. So, congratulations on the lift. Ben Brooks 6:43 Thank you, and we'll have you two on as guests very soon. Trish 6:47 I love it. Steve 6:48 Ben. There are so many things happening in the world of work right now, in the world of leadership. It's.. I don't even know where to begin. We were chatting pre-show about all the challenges that are kind of inherent in this environment right now, and all the pressures that both organizations, leadership managers, and individuals are under. Right, I mean, we're swimming in a morass of change, of challenge, of uncertainty. I mean, you're working with a lot of organizations, a lot of leaders. How are things? How are things in the last year or so? And what are some of the, you know, big issues that are coming in that you're trying to help organizations navigate through and help leaders navigate through right now? Ben Brooks 7:35 Yeah, there is, there is a lot of change. I think the economy generally is in much better shape objectively than people feel, and that was, I think, a part of even, you know, Biden's loss and other things, is there's a sentiment that's distinct from the reality, affordability is certainly an issue, but, but generally, across the board, economic indicators are fairly solid, despite what a mess it is, but the, the narrative in the news, and AI, and workforce and joblessness, and you know, the unbundling of global trade, and all, you know, all sorts of different things, government, you know, interference in the market, and regulation, and you know, punishment, and things. I think has people pretty rattled more about what could happen than what is happening, which is how our brains work. We always are thinking about the threat that's in front of us, that's how we stay alive. So I think there is a great deal of overwhelm and chaos around the possibilities and potentials. I just have not seen entire orgs get generally wiped out, et cetera, but they are on the precipice of deciding, is this going to be, you know, evolutionary or revolutionary with AI, and are we going to be winners or losers, and amongst a lot of other things, so I think they're deciding, is this going to be evolutionary or revolutionary with AI, and are there other things you know that are going to upset the Apple Card? So I think most executives and leaders I know are thinking a lot about the future, but they're probably fearing a lot more than plotting a lot, and I think to the Warren Buffett quote, you know, when people get greedy, get scared, but when people get scared, get greedy. I think right now people are getting scared, and I think it's actually an opportunity to potentially play offense, but it may require some bold moves and a lot of courage. Trish 9:14 And when you're saying people are getting scared, are you thinking of like the leadership that's getting scared, or is this all the way throughout an organization where now the employees are, so you know, just having lack of focus because there's too many, too many things going on. Is that filtering way down? Ben Brooks 9:29 I think societally fear and anxiety are heightened in general, as we have, you know, we're at war, people are worried about comunical, you know, communicable diseases, Ebola or spread of measles, or these other things, you know, and can people get healthcare and public safety, and I mean, you know, affordability. I think there's a heightened consumer sense of just anxiety and threat in general. The world feels like a more dangerous place, in part because we have better real-time information. Before, you know, 40 years ago, before HR Happy Hour Podcast Network, we didn't always know what was going on, so I think that is a part of it, but I do think you know, you know, markets investors, they like predictability, they like stability. It's hard right now when you don't know what the government, whether the executive branch or the or the legislative branch at the federal levels or even state levels are going to do. A lot of erratics are very difficult to plan and do scenario planning. Ben Brooks 10:19 One of my clients is in DC today, and will be in the Oval Office, and trying to influence around particular things in around some difficult legislation, and so I think that there's, you know, I think within organizations there's a lot of fear, and you know, if you're at the top of management, you know, it's harder to get a job the higher up you are, even though you have more of a safety net, typically, because you, you know, sort of higher burn, so there's a lot of people thinking about their jobs, they have five or 10 more years in the workforce, can they bridge that, they're the ones that are in charge, typically, you know, so do they like ride it out or do they really future proof the org, you know, there's a lot of people, you know, just worried about a lot of different things, and so I think that there's definitely a lot of fear, but also that often you know, has us do the things that actually manifest the outcome we don't want is when we're so fearful, we'll often, it's like if someone's really worried about losing their job, they'll often do behaviors like they won't speak up or they won't ask for anything or they won't, whatever, and all of a sudden they seem like they're not performing because they're not wanting the tallest poppy get their head chopped off, they want to stay down, but in fact they should be asking for more and driving more, et cetera. So I think sometimes we have these things where we are trying to avoid an outcome in the behaviors actually increase our odds of having the outcome we don't want. Trish 11:33 Yeah, that's really interesting, because I think as you're talking about whether someone's going to future proof or whether they're going to just keep their heads down, I think you're right. I think a lot of times when you get overwhelmed with all of these inputs, you freeze. Many people freeze, right? Ben Brooks 11:46 Yeah. Trish 11:46 Also, just when you're saying that about leaders who might be even like us, you know, you've got potentially 10 more years of work, maybe a little more, but you know, is that the time you really want to rock the boat, or do you really do maybe want to coast a little bit? Right. So. Ben Brooks 12:00 Sure. Trish 12:00 It's interesting. It's always been interesting to me. How to watch people who are nearing retirement, they are the leaders, typically, and they can make or break a company with their own personal bias that they're bringing into that role. Right? How are you advising managers, then, or other leaders on what capabilities they need to focus in on, so that they don't wind up completely heads down and getting maybe blindsided and being let go, or the opposite, that they're just coasting. What kind of things should they be thinking about and focusing on instead? Ben Brooks 12:35 Yeah, I think there's kind of two places to dig, and one, the Sandler sales model talks about level one, two, and three discovery, and level one's the basics you find on LinkedIn about size of the company, where their headquarters, what they do. Level two is more specifics, their goals, their needs, their strategy, their risks, and level three is the individual that you're selling to, like the executive. And so I think going in the level two thing, it's like, you know, getting the organization aligned on what are the threats and what are the goals, because most organizations actually don't have a good strategy, the goals are not that clear. If you really look under it, it's a lot of it's vague AI is making it even sloppier. There's often a lot of stuff where it's just so high level that no one's aligned, but we could all say this is okay. So, I think there's a lot. Steve 13:17 You talk about that high level thing. I always think about, it's Roger Martin, it's a Roger Martin thing from from Canada, but he said if the if the opposite of your strategy makes like just no sense, it's so obvious, then your strategy doesn't mean anything, so like if you're if your strategy is we want to be the most trustworthy supplier of widgets, you know, in the market. Well, the opposite of that would be, you know, we'll be the least trustworthy supplier of widgets, which obviously makes no sense solely. Ben Brooks 13:51 And, by the way, Who wouldn't want to be that in your industry, you know, professional service? We want to be a trusted client partner. Well, if you're an investment bank, do you think every other investment bank doesn't want that too, because strategy is about where to play and how to win, and so you know, I got a lot of issues with Elon Musk, but one thing we agree on is the ultimate bullshit detector is getting into the details, and so part of strategy is making tough choices, but part of the restraining force to making strategy specific and explicit is some people inside the organization are going to lose. You're going to have someone that wants to move into the Latin American market, and you're going to say, actually, we're not going to do that. Instead, we're going to double down on North America, or you're going to have someone that wants to go all in on AI, and someone says, no, we want to be a late adopter, we want to acquire companies rather than build our own capability, you know. So, I think that there's a lot of conflict in alignment, so I think on the what I'm advising leaders is to get clear about, you know, what game you're playing and how you're trying to win, because alignment and line of sight contribution and clarity is more important than ever. You know, everyone's talking about being more performance driven org, but, like, well, how do we assess performance, because it's not time in front of a computer, right, that's input, performance is typically output. But on the level three part, for the individual, I think it's getting them to consider what do they need to do in their role at the organization, and also what do they need to take care of themselves. And unfortunately, we often start with the latter, but if you're paid, you're paid to be a professional in a member role, and your role has goals and has a context, and the roles have responsibility, you have authorization and accountability, and this is how systems work. And so, a lot of it is getting them back to say, well, all right, what is your role? What are you responsible for? You know, what are you authorized to do versus not? And how are you held accountable? And what are your goals? And if they're implicit, let's make them explicit, so we can see if we're aligned. And it's really about clarity and fundamentals that you know gets us back to it, but it's the harder work, because you can't just kick it off and bullshit, etc. You have to think, you have to have courage, and you have to have conflict. So, so there's a Venn diagram between those level two and level three, but a lot of it is like, really, you know, again, imagine, as Trish said, we're overwhelmed. It's like when we all have all the browser tabs that are all open, our computers are, that's our brains, right. And so sometimes we have to reboot or close applications and tabs. Some of that simplicity and essentialism is really required, because if you're facing a storm, you don't want to be doing everything in all directions at once. You've got to pick an approach. Are you going to try to go through it, go around it, weather it? Trish 16:19 Yep. Ben Brooks 16:19 And so I think that that's the part of, like, the strategy part, and then the alignment, and then as things change, just like if you're in the military, and the conditions on the field change, you need to adapt, right? Again, we have conditioned ourselves, we make five year strategic plans, and our budgets every year, we just add 3% to what we did last year, and things, and that's ever never been a good way to run companies, but now we're getting exposed, because the world is moving faster than the methods we have to manage and lead. Trish 16:45 Yeah, and I think you're right. I think decisive leaders are what ultimately employees and managers want. They might not always love your direction if you're taking the company, but at least there's a direction. I think it's that ambiguity when everybody's just like, what are we doing? We don't know, and then they, they wind up not staying, they're unhappy, they're feeling more pressure, more stress about maybe the company is doing well, and they're just not even sure it is right. So, yeah, I think part of having a job that that I would consider good is one where there is consistency, and there's some sort of direction from leadership, right, or from the ultimate leader. So. Ben Brooks 17:08 And I will mention Trish. Just, you know, this is the thing I'm still working on. I haven't figured this all out. I'm an executive, my own company, and I have a lot to grow and learn and adapt in this environment. And we talk a lot about psychological safety, knowing where we're going as an org and what your part is in it, and what's expected, and how you're going to work with others is a massive foundation of psychological safety. It's not just the tone in which we speak with someone or non-violent communication with using me and I stuff, which is super important, but a lot of it is like, is are we selling, and if you've got people that are neurodivergent or people from different cultures having that explicit, you got people that are first gen, that's a part of equity, is having that clarity, but on the directiveness, you know, at my company we do exit interviews for people when they depart, and I, I conduct them, we do them, you know, three weeks after they depart. Highly recommend this method, standard set of questions, we've got a great set of questions, you can, you know, I probably should just put them up on LinkedIn, so ping me on LinkedIn if you want the questions, or, but, but you know, I, and we pay people for their time. Trish 18:24 Okay. Ben Brooks 18:24 And, and you know, and, and you know, I recently got some feedback that aligned with feedback I got from a coach and advisor, I had some engagement survey data, we had it all sort of triangulated, but for some reason it really clicked that I needed to be more directive, I thought, gosh, I think I'm pretty clear, and so I dug into more of them, they're like, you're often clear, but you kind of want to like bring people along, and have these, and sometimes Ben, you know what you want. Trish 18:49 Yeah. Ben Brooks 18:49 And you just need to say it, because we want to do it, and we trust you, right, you're a smart guy, you own the company, you've gotten us this far, and so, and you're open to feedback and challenge, but like, if you know what you want, just say it. And so that was the exit interview. I said, you know, Ben, you're a little too lenient, you've got to be a lot more directive, and you've got to spend time with higher quality audiences. And those are the three pieces of feedback I got. And it was, you know, again, a gift from someone. It shows the relationships we have on transition that they feel comfortable and safe to tell me that. And I take it on, and I'm sharing this with you all, that this is developmental work for me, so I'm working, Trish, right now in my own sense to work through some sometimes conflict avoidance that I can have, or anxiety that I certainly have, you know, anxiety disorder, and I get treatment for all that, and so I'm having to navigate some of that, because in this environment, these sort of, let me just bring everyone along when we're often already aligned, we just need to make the call, and what I'm noticing from my teams is they're loving it. Now we should ask them to make sure that's the full picture, but in general, they're saying, "Wow, it's so great to have a decision. I'm clear on this, including "I don't want to make the decision, you make it, use your best judgment. Here's where optimizing for so the speed of our companies performance in the last six months are our strategic goal at Pilot. Every year we have a strategic theme. This year is one word: faster. And the gating factor of that one of them has been my lack of being super decisive and directive, and so I'm looking at removing that as a restraining force. There's a bunch of other things we've done, but we just did a whole assessment as a company, and we're moving significantly faster because the market's moving faster, our customers are moving faster, and so it's less about which product or service or org structure. It's the entire machine needs to move without losing our brand, without losing our quality, without losing our integrity, and our, you know, accuracy. So that's just, you know, to let everyone in, that if you're feeling like, gosh, this is the thing I'm struggling with, know that I am too. Steve 20:43 Yeah. Trish 20:44 I'm so glad you share that story, because I think that's what happens when you wind up in the leadership level at any organization, regardless of size. You feel a little bit like an island, and you don't, or you think all other leaders must know how to do this. Every other CEO must already have this down, and I appreciate the fact that you're sharing that vulnerability, because I think that's the only way that other leaders can learn, it's from hearing each other talk about this, or from working with a company, I know that's why you started Pilot, right, so you actually be helping leaders grow instead of being either head in the sand or just being defensive, right? Steve 21:22 Yeah. Trish 21:22 So I'm.. it says a lot that someone would come back after the fact and give you that, as you said, a gift of feedback, right? Steve 21:30 And I think that there it's also a good lesson for whether it's a leader in an organization or a founder or CEO of an organization, whoever it is, right? There's a trap you can fall into, and I'll say this.. I don't know this for sure. I feel like it's more of a guys do this more, but you feel like you've, you've arrived at a certain position or a certain level and achieved a lot in your career, and therefore you've got it all figured out, and therefore you don't really need feedback in that fashion, nor do you need to really act on it if you do get such feedback, so I think it's important as well to remind ourselves that we can all learn from feedback from others, from our teams, from our peers, from our friends, just, you know, the idea that, hey, I've got this all figured out in a super turbulent time. I always laugh. We do like we're analysts, right? Then, and we do analyst work, and often we'll get a new, you know, oh, Company XYZ has released this new thing, right, or a new software, or new whatever, right? And and then within five minutes, we'll see people concluding and determining what this means, like at a macro level, and figure it all out, and I always think to myself, this is a thing you'd never have heard of, you know, until 30 seconds ago, and you've already concluded what it actually means, that's not possible, right? Have a little bit of humility, have a little bit of reflection, have a little of thoughtfulness, and so I appreciate you kind of sharing that, Ben, because I think it's a great lesson for all of us, especially those like Trish said, we're a little bit further on our careers, and maybe think we've got it all figured out, because we don't. Ben Brooks 23:07 And a shout out to just being transparent with the analyst thing, because there's a lot of people that have a quick take, because they're paid by a company to do that, and they make a lot of. Steve 23:14 That's their job, sure. Ben Brooks 23:15 And there's certainly some of the biggest names in the industry have an integrity problem around that, and don't disclose any of it, and won't say any names here, but, but you know, they, you know, I think it's, it's being transparent. Look, I mean, Steve, your point is something that's proven in research, even workforce development programs that are focused on getting people into the workforce or getting them up in economic strata. One of the biggest failure modes is they get people the job, and then people don't keep the job, because they think that the goal was just to get it, but then they didn't realize they needed to succeed in it right? And that's at the bottom rung of the hierarchy, but to your point, at the top rung, there's research we've been looking at that conflict is the least common the higher up the hierarchy, and part of that is, well, how do you stay in an org? You're likable. Steve 23:54 Yeah. Ben Brooks 23:55 Right, you're too much of a pain in the ass, you're not going to be there, right, but then that, but at the top of the org is where you need to have the most conflict, that's around the strategy and the priorities and the standards, and I think that the, you know, we recently at Pilot, our customers asked us, they said, "Hey, you don't do you do 360s and can you interview people? I said, "Well, we don't do that, and you know, we have different methods. We finally built a 360 product called Feedback Sprints, and the research that we had was like, "Yes, we need to go get help, people get feedback, and there's better ways to do that, and in particular, we don't interview people on their behalf. We actually have the employee interview their own manager, and then key the data into the system, so we see it and the manager. It's like, and it's a whole, it flips the script, but the thing that, when we are starting to deploy it, and then to build the kind of index card size development plan, the thing that was missing, Steve, is what you said, which is feedback readiness, and so we actually started up front. Before we gave people feedback, we had to sort of give them, you know, the meat tenderizer or the stool softener, or whatever sort of analogy you want to use, of saying this probably is not going to make you feel great. This might remind you of your mother. This might stir up an insane. This might poke at a tender part of you. Yeah. So it really is the Surgeon General's warning on the outside of the package that really has people, rather than, you know, just shoving feedback at them, or an overwhelming amount of feedback. It's like, what is this about, and what do you, what is going to get kicked up in you that's going to have you resist or fight or feel bad or be submissive about it, and so, and of course, you know, we structure it in a way where you get less of the bias thing, where I say to a woman, you know, I don't like her style or something, all this traffic comes in, so we try to sort through a lot of that as well, so through better structured quantitative measures, but the number one impediment is what you're saying, Steve, is the resistance to even consider or show that maybe you don't have it all figured out, and yet that's the thing that we like in everybody. When, when, when we do that, when I do that, you're gonna like me more, but if I show up as this like perfection shielded thing, then we resist those people. Steve 25:52 Yeah. Trish 25:53 Well, I feel like I don't, I can't put my finger on when that changed, because I think when, when I came into the workforce, which was similar in timing to both of you working at a large professional services firm. It was like, I, if I think back, who did I really learn from? It was actually some of those partners that were older and really gruff, and they were caring at me and around. They were, they didn't hold back, they didn't hold back, they were authentically them, and then we've over the years asked them to soften, which is fine and needed in many cases, right? I'm not advocating that you should go in and cuss out your employees, but I do feel like that's where we've missed something. So, I like that what you're describing, and the way you're getting it, and kind of flipping the script, that makes sense to me, because we do need a little bit of that, people calling us out on the BS when we have it right, like, and we don't do that either. It's sort of, we, you go want to have a conversation with someone else about it, like, you know, I might be like, "Oh, Steve, Ben is really not, he is not doing well, I don't like him, I don't like his, you know, whatever, instead of being direct. So, yeah, I think that what you're doing is needed for many reasons, but that's that's a real main reason for me, because I think we've lost some of that over the years of just, I don't know, talking behind people's backs and not to their faces about and seeing things more directly, so that you can actually do move faster and more efficiently, right. Ben Brooks 27:22 And it provokes a lot of it. Goes, Steve, go ahead. Steve 27:24 Yeah, just I'd love for you to maybe to talk a little bit about Ben, the just the in helping leaders just create a climate where people don't want to just stick their head in the sand or don't want to keep their head down, the risk aversion, right, which we know in a fast moving kind of climate that we're in now, with technology coming fast and furious, etc. Organizations probably won't benefit from not from paralysis right now, they're probably going to have to move, but at the same time, you said you get ahead by being likable, right? Yep, yep. What about, you know, just environmentally or culturally to help help with making organizations more safe to share that kind of feedback and share your opinions a little bit more openly. Ben Brooks 28:12 Yeah, Marc Andreessen, who's a venture capitalist, who's somewhat problematic, wrote a book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things. He said that most corporations hire for lack of weaknesses rather than strengths, right? Serviceable is the word you'll hear something other, serviceable CFO, right. And so we've, you know, Trish, I think to your point, we have optimized for the nothing's wrong with them, but not for their stellar or excellent at these things, and it may come with some trade-offs, like they're disorganized, but boy, can they bring in that revenue, or they're exacting and rigorous and stubborn, but you know they, they, you know, keep us out of the regulatory penalty box, or whatever it might be. So, I think part of it is, you know, our organization's willing to truly prioritize rather than get average across the board, they get exceptional around the things that matter, but I think Steve, on the culture part, most organizations have never really aligned on ways of working, and I mean above the level of process, right? You know, I think increasingly with the way the world is going, and AI being only one example, you know, the siloed approach is not working, or even if you have a cross-functional project or team, or whatever matrix organization, even that needs to keep changing, right, because of you merge, you offer new products, you do these different things, and so you know part of the cultural source code that often doesn't get built, and this is thing that we help companies do, is define what we call a culture deck, which is, you know, how you work and what's expected is not at the level of role, right? This is, we think, so vertically, like the silo and the priorities and the role and all these things, but it's, you know, if Trish and Steve and Ben all work in the org, and we're in different departments, maybe we're at different levels. Is there an agreement about how we come together, which, by the way, fosters inclusion? You can have different beliefs. But we're going to have shared behaviors, right, and so if that is a way of working that says, you know, to Trish, you know, it's like we're going to work it out together, that if I have a thing with you, I'm going to go to you, and if I go to you about someone else, you're going to say, "Hey, you're going to the wrong person, you need to go talk to Steve, like that would be a way of working, or there could be this idea of, like, make the customer the hero, or should we have a whole set of 50 operating principles that we help customers roll out select ones, but that ends up being we find a very enduring way to kind of bind culture, because culture isn't just the catering you have in the office or whatever else, but it's, but it's ultimately when people say at the dinner table or on Facetime, you know, how was work today, you know, it's what is that experience, and if there is an agreement around certain things, even if it's ways to have meetings, and again, not at a super rigid way, but a certain way to, you know, how you need to escalate things, you need to call certain things out, or how you need to, like, how we're going to treat a customer. A pilot, we have a very rigorous standard, whether you're in sales, you're in account management, you're in service delivery, you're in finance and invoicing, you're in administration, you're in IT security. Everyone treats our customer in the same standards, even though they have very different roles and backgrounds. And so I think that's the part around culture that allows people to work a lot more cross-functionally, but also customers hate it when they work with a big company, in particular, and they're like, oh, well, that's the this department, or that, or that, like that, they're like, look, you know, it's just one Ernst and Young, it's one IBM, it's one JP Morgan, that's that's that's what's on the invoice, so I don't want to hear about it's this division that part, but most organizations have just optimized very locally rather than at a sort of global level, and also HR has gotten in the way sometimes by making it too complicated, you know, a lot of people that were in Learning Town got PhDs, and so they were paid for complexity, whereas what the market needs is actually simplicity and standardization. Trish 31:51 Yeah, those are all such great points. I think also just to add, I think it's how people feel seen and heard, and I mean, you mentioned inclusion, so that kind of leads us maybe a little bit down that DE and I path, right. We've, we've seen companies kind of move in and out of that, but I think that when you're making sure that your people feel really seen, really heard, and part of something bigger than themselves. I see a lot in healthcare, when I've worked in healthcare, there was a lot of that sort of alignment, right, so that it was all about that patient outcome, and I guess you know, if you're in a company where you're making widgets, maybe that's a little harder to put your mind around the culture that way, but you really need to figure that out, because when your employees and your managers and everyone's feeling like truly part of a process that's working for that end result, you don't want to leave. Ben Brooks 32:44 Totally and Trish I remember your story, interviewing it, I've told it 100 times at St. Louis Children's, you know, and seeing, you know, the janitor at the loading dock, and like, what are you doing, and I'm helping to heal children, and that mission alignment, granted, it's a lofty mission, it's a great, you know, that's but, but you know, but I think if there is a way that you are proud about how you engage with others, right, how you're supported, there's a clarity. I think a lot of the, some of the blow background DEI was some of it's coming from a pretty nasty place, but some of it is warranted that we were kind of had some empty calories around some of the approaches, that it was some sort of feel-good things and sort of just about being nice and things, when in reality it was like we actually have to figure out how to, we're actually going to work together and understand each other, which isn't always going to be a heritage month celebration or a party, although it's important. I'm LGBTQ, I'm, you know, it's Pride month, you know, we're like, we want to celebrate these things, but a lot of it is like part of the inclusion and the equity is have we defined the unwritten rules of work, so we have a level playing field in an efficient internal labor market, for everyone talks about a merit. People are often very anti-deal. It got to be a meritocracy. Well, that assumes an efficient market and clear standards. And a meritocracy is great. I love meritocracies, but have you specified that, or is that only for the people whose dad is a managing director at the firm, or third-generation people that went to Deerfield Academy and Philips Exeter, and then they went to an IV, and all these things, and nothing wrong with that, that path of those people, and those are great institutions, but if you're, you know, if you're first gen and you're coming from Queens, and you're, you know, you're Puerto Rican, and you're from different, or you're Taiwanese, or whatever else, like, you know, that's a part of, I think, where organizations benefit, and it's not because it's the moral right thing to do, it's that they can be more successful with their strategy and shareholders, because they want to create that efficient market, and to have people compete, and to win, and share together. And so, this is no different than what we talked sports at the beginning of this, right? They have to think about a lot of these things as well, and that's the difference, you know, from the players, right. And last night, you know, Brandon Brunson, you know, was from the Knicks, was it was interviewed, and he took a huge pay cut, right, to help them level out their, their salary cap, and you know, build the team out, right, and the first thing he talked about last night on his interview after the game in the, in the press room was that he had a kid from Make-A-Wish Foundation that he had recently, they asked him to make a video, and instead he Facetimed him, you know, recent. Recently, and they had a really nice connection, and he had just learned that day that the kid had passed, and he wanted to honor the family, and he brought his fans in, right? He brought a fan, that you know, child that deceased from a disease, and that's like, you know, so that's also a part of it, is that it's not just about scoring personal records and certain stats or things like that, it's also like bringing in your fans, your customers, your advocates, your community stakeholders, etc. Ben Brooks 35:26 And again, I think that you know ultimately management is the achievement of results through others, that is the form of leverage and industrial labor relations and all these things, and so that is about bringing people together and not just in a feel-good rah rah, but in a sense of a sense of alignment, we have to do that in the military, we have to do that with public health. When we have pandemics, we have to, you know, we have to rally the troops. We often say, you know, we have to be a field marshal out on the, if we're a soccer coach or baseball coach, these sort of things. So, a lot of these behaviors we do in a lot of other areas, we don't always bring them into a traditional corporate workforce. Steve 35:59 Yeah. Trish 35:59 Such a good example, I think we just want to feel part of something bigger than ourselves as people. DE and I is for everyone, everyone is included in that, it's not exclusive, right? So everyone benefits, and I think that's what everyone wants. We just need it less check the box, right? Checklist sort of things and things that are going to divide us, as opposed to, yeah, no one. I think back to when you're a little kid, if you're the little kid that doesn't get picked on the kick to play kickball or dodgeball, or whatever, right? Like, no one wants to be that kid, and that's that's how we wind up treating each other as adults. We, we exclude people for a ton of reasons, you know. And. Ben Brooks 36:40 It's, it's, it's interesting, Trish, because I brought Tom Rath onto my podcast, who wrote Strengths Finders 2.0 and his grandfather was the original Gallup CEO and company owner, and the reason I brought him on is I wanted to talk about his book called Vital Friends, and they did an empirical study of 14 million Americans around friendship, and they found the number one hedge against losing employees in terms of attrition was having a best friend at work, and so it became this is an insight for me 15 years ago, and it became this insight, right? And he's got a bunch of books, he's sold, he got on the show, and Tom has an incredible story, he was diagnosed with cancer, and his teens told he wouldn't live past 37 he's now 52 got healthy kids, he's he's an incredible, gentle, kind-hearted human, but you know, he said, "I'm so glad you're asking about this, because that was the lowest selling book I've ever written, and I get the least press on it, and yet it's the thing that I think makes the biggest difference, but all the things that I focused on that were individualistic, like find your strengths, yeah, you know, how do you succeed, those sell like crazy, but when it's like what you can do for others, how you can be a good friend and create connection, people are just too self-centered often to think about the other, and so he was so it's a great episode, he was delighted, we, you know, to share, we could put it in the show notes, but but it was just an insight that I was, I was surprised, because he's like, I'm actually most passionate about some of this research, but it's gotten the least sales and least media attention. But yeah, Trish, part of inclusion is at the desk level. It's not the corporate policies. Is were you invited to go to lunch with the group, or did someone say, "How was your weekend? or "Hey, you seem a little bit down today, is everything okay? I mean, inclusion is often in the micro moments, and it's not something that can be controlled or managed from on high. It's a shared agreement back to the way we work, you know, and what's expected, and how we work together. If what's expected is that you connect meaningfully with colleagues, that you advocate and look out for them, that you're thoughtful. One of our, one of my personal, personal most important values is to be thoughtful. It's one of our company values, and so if you want to see me light someone, that light someone's ass up at my company, it's when we're not thoughtful, and it's not just opportunity, sometimes it's just that we, you know, send a customer a bunch of files and they're not labeled, and the emails, I'm as thoughtful, right? We are going to be a thoughtful company, but also when people have, you know, peak and trough moments, you know, someone dies or they're on the cover of magazine or get a big job, like part of being thoughtful is showing up for them in that as well, but again, that's the stuff that you know we have to agree together, because I'm not in every moment in interaction. Most of the times, when our company is thoughtful, I didn't know what was happening, I didn't suggest it, I didn't execute it, and I find out after the fact. And that's how you get scale in the achievement of results through others, is not having to control it, but to sort of inspire and enable folks to do the right thing, and then to celebrate it when they do. Trish 39:21 Yeah. So true. Steve 39:24 Ben, you know, I would say this has been a great conversation, as usual. Your ninth appearance on the show, only the seventh time I believe you've mentioned stool softeners. So, that's pretty amazing over the course of the years. Ben Brooks 39:37 We didn't get into plungers or septic tanks. We'll save that for number 10 for the in person. Steve 39:42 I'm glad you worked it in, but I, we didn't get to everything we wanted to get to, and that's fine. We'll circle back, and as you said, we'll join you on the Lift sometime soon, and maybe talk about some more of these of these topics, for sure. I want you to also just shout out Pilot one more time. Tell folks where to find Pilot, engage with Pilot, learn more about Pilot, and of course the Lift as well. Ben Brooks 40:06 Great. So, so I am most findable personally on LinkedIn. So, Ben Brooks, connect with me there. I put out a lot of content and some personal stories and other things. Pilot is Pilot.Coach, C O A C H, is our website. You can always just send me a direct message on LinkedIn too, if you want to find any of this. And then the Lift is the liftpod.com We're on 33 podcasting platforms, Apple, Spotify, everything in between. And our website actually has articles that are companion articles to the show, they're not show summaries, but if you've got colleagues and you want to share an episode that maybe is a bit of a book club with teams and things, we've got discussion questions, we've got additional research, and that for folks that are maybe not as is auditory as learners, there's there's a written thing as well as sort of transcripts and other things like that. So that's all on the website, and we're going to come up with a bunch of more resources, because we'd like it to be a sort of modern resource and book club that people can hand around, because no one's doing white papers and webinars and things like they used to, so what's the way to be, would we engage people? It's through a more modern medium. So, I appreciate your support over the years. You know, you all helped inspire me to create the Lift, just seeing what you've done, and I think you've done it so consistently. Obviously, you're just the drumbeat is there, and that is the winning strategy, and you've evolved the show, and you've helped platform me and others in ways that have benefited us. So, I just want to thank and acknowledge you both for your leadership, because you've been role models to me, and I can tell you that the show you've encouraged me a couple years ago to consider doing a show, and so I just want to thank you, because you're you are advisors and investors in my future, and the show wouldn't be what it is without the two of you, so I thank you. Trish 40:06 Well, you're welcome. And thank you right back. I mean, I was thinking back to when we got to know each other many, many years ago, and I've always thought of you - this is pre-Pilot days - I've always thought of you as like my personal coach, and so when you started Pilot, and I would tell anyone who's listening to this now, it's it's really like getting Ben on steroids for yourself every day if you work with Pilot, because I think the insights that you bring and the candor with which you deliver the message that has extended into the product and the solutions you create for your clients, and yeah, so thank you for being a good coach to me personally, and I know Steve's learned a lot as well. So, yeah. Steve 41:10 I'm waiting for the Ben bot, like, where I could get the answer, like Ben would answer it, right? That could be really cool. Ben Brooks 42:34 It could also be a very slippery slope. We could see the hallucinations, or you could see some of.. I would imagine some of my dysfunctions, or my mic, my crassness on occasion, could we have to have a filter on that, maybe, but. Steve 42:46 I'm gonna put that in the suggbox for you guys to think about something. Ben Brooks 42:50 Okay, well, we're gonna find other ways to just to interact more through the Lift and the community we're building there to just get access to me and to the, you know, many talented colleagues on our team, the 50 plus folks that that make the magic for our customers, because they're really the hero of that story in our customers, so. Steve 43:04 Awesome. Ben Brooks 43:04 But thanks for having me on. Steve 43:05 Well, great stuff, Ben. Great to see you again, as always. Let's be see each other again soon, hopefully in person, maybe in New York. Go Knicks, of course. Ben Brooks 43:13 Go Knicks. Steve 43:14 Trish. Great show, good to see you. Ben Brooks 43:17 Go World Cup too. Trish 43:18 Go World Cup. Steve 43:19 Cups, as we record this, the World Cup is starting today, as it were. Ben Brooks 43:25 I'll be at the France Senegal game on Tuesday, rooting for Senegal. France is obviously the number one favorite, incredible team, but I visited Senegal five months ago, fell in love with the people and the culture, and I'll be rooting for Senegal. Steve 43:36 All right, sounds good. We will too. Great stuff, Ben. Trish, great stuff as well. Go to HRHappyHour.net you'll find all the shows, loads of stuff, really interesting things going on, really cool stuff going on. Both shout out to Sabrina Baker on HR Connection, doing really good shows lately. And workplace minutes are on fire, Trish, so hope you're listening to those too. So, thank you, everybody. Go to HRHappyHour.net for all the archives. My name is Steve Boese. We'll see you next time. And bye for now. Transcribed by https://otter.ai