Steve 0:09 The HR Happy Hour Network is proudly supported by Workhuman. We talk a lot on this show about where HR is headed, and one of the most exciting developments I've seen lately is what Workhuman is doing with future leaders. Future leaders is the first talent intelligence tool of its kind, helping companies identify high-potential VP plus talent already inside their organization up to four years before they step into the role, and it's not based on gut instinct or visibility, using real-time recognition data and proprietary AI, it reveals who's already influencing and elevating the people around them. Future leaders from Workhuman is setting a new standard for internal talent development. You can learn more at Workhuman.com Thanks for joining us. Welcome back to the At Work in America show. My name is Steve Boese. I am so excited for today's show. My guest is David Goldstein. He's the founder of TeamBonding, and he's also the author of the book Beyond Trust Falls: The Definitive Guide to Building Teams That Click. David, welcome to the show. We have not talked about team building, I don't think ever once in 15 years of the show, I'm excited for the conversation. David Goldstein 1:23 Hopefully, we'll start something, a new trend. Steve 1:25 Yeah, but I'm going to dive in, because this is not just team building, at least from my point of view, and hopefully yours as well. This is really about just discussing how we create inclusive workspaces where people feel safe where they feel included, they feel welcome, they feel seen, they feel heard, and they can do great work. This is not this, maybe why the book is Beyond Trust Falls. So, David, the first question I have for you, it's in the book, Psalm, but I'd love you to share some of it, a little bit of the background, a little bit of your story, and how sort of team bonding evolved out of what you were doing earlier in your career. David Goldstein 2:05 Oh, sure, the TeamBonding evolved in a number of different ways. I was working for a company called Learning Adventure, and Learning Adventure did its kind of, was called like an adult education program. We created 100 different activities and events, and from anything from sleazy bar hopping to real estate investment to murder mysteries, and we had a whole bunch of different things that kind of created experiences. So, as you know, when I was younger, I was doing ski trips and rafting trips and hot air ballooning, and all sorts of interesting adventures for individuals and people. I was very popular amongst my friend group, because we were always doing something fun. Steve 2:42 You guys had something going on, right? That was, that was exciting and interesting and cool. David Goldstein 2:46 We did, yeah. And that kind of led into a murder mystery. I was the first one that did the murder mystery dinner theaters. Okay. Then the murder mysteries led into a little bit more of custom corporate events, and then I started to look into a little bit more of something that wasn't an option, something that was beneficial, something that that helped people that allowed people in these experiences to work and play together. Steve 3:10 Yeah. David Goldstein 3:11 And then team building is, you know, that was where the days of the Trust Falls can get as an American Airlines commercial where the guy falls back and he, you know, someone's not paying attention, he hits the ad on the floor, right? Right. So, now you know, are we created programs that were designed to deliver the outcomes the clients wanted, if they were looking for communication, if they were looking for trust. We created themes, and then outcomes, and then created the exercises to make things happen. Yeah, yeah. Steve 3:47 David, great. I appreciate you sharing some of the background to this, because, and you've also started to hand out something, which I think is really important, which is like intentionality here, right? It's, it's when you, when you work with clients, and you work with companies, you're trying to help them solve problems, and companies have different problems, right? They have different challenges, and they have different goals, right. It's not just about let's roll out the same program, because I think folks hear team building, sometimes, especially older folks like myself, you know, and you could be, look, we can get real, corporate America can jade you, right? It can make you cynical, and it can take a lot of the joy from you. It just can, right. And so, sometimes folks hear about team building, and they think, oh, that's not for me, I don't want to get up in front of the room and talk about my favorite color, or what animal I would be, you know, or anything like that. Like, and I don't see the value, but you guys don't approach it that way at all, and I'd love for you maybe to share a little bit about just the design of team building and what it is, and kind of maybe what it isn't, and how you approach it with your with the folks you work with. David Goldstein 4:56 Well, I think the idea is the eventuality of the client wants their people to, you know, to feel safe. We don't want to do something that makes them uncomfortable. We want to make do something that allows them to test ideas without, without, you know, fearing to fail. Yeah. Now, if you can do this with your colleagues and you can do this with your coworkers, then you can do it in real life. So, what we've always done is created the programs that you know, designed based on the outcomes, and then we've built the themes in it, and different things have come over the years. You know, we first started doing scavenger hunts, and then we've, you know, scavengers are fun ones, because my first event was a scavenger hunt for 280 people in limousines and Polaroid cameras, and then digital cameras, and now it's in iPads and phones and such, but the interesting thing is, back, you know, nostalgia, it's back to Polaroid cameras again. And then we did cooking, because cooking is a nice thing, where you can cook with your colleagues, and you'll see some talents that you had no idea they had. Everyone, you know, with the food TV, you know, is a chef at home, and it really can come out, you know, the secretary, or the administrative assistant, or the someone, the engineer comes up with some ideas that you had no idea that they had, and you come up with cake, or chili, or chowder, or ice cream, all the different things we've created, even ice sculpting, so we try to come up with different activities to bring out the best in people. Steve 6:23 I like that, David, and it's sort of.. I could see where, with some of these exercises, a person who maybe in the workplace is not seen as creative or innovative, or not tapped as someone for a new idea, or to solve a particularly difficult problem, they get into a different environment, right. It's outside the workplace, it's in a different setting. You've worked and your team has worked to make people feel comfortable to participate and to open up a little bit, and all of a sudden, right, new talents can emerge, or people can feel a little bit more free. I'd love for you to maybe share a little bit about that, and what you guys have seen when you're working with with people and clients about that happening. David Goldstein 7:07 Well, I think that's kind of the key. We asked, you know, and when we set it up with our event manager, the senior management to step down, to not be the leaders, to allow the people that are, you know, that are, you know, under their oversight to step up and you know show things that they can do. I think that you know with all the different types of things that we do, and we have about 200 of them, you know, it allows different things to get different people to do, like an escape room. We do a mobile escape room, and some people can decode things, and you know, there's so many different ways to, you know, do the escape type of thing, and it just brings out, you know, some talents that you don't see in people, and it also brings out sometimes early in my days we did an event where we did a scavenger hunt and I had to lead it, the boss who owned the company, he went around with his limousine and paid $50 for every team behind him not to know, so you know, let me do this in the big and tall store, but don't let anybody else do it. You learn a lot about people and about leadership, and you know, and the ways to do things in the ways not to do things. Steve 8:18 Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think I think there's a lot to be said for you, mentioned earlier, fear, right, fear of bringing new ideas, fear of being wrong, right, and there's a good, good element, a good aspect of the book, and the story you talk about TeamBonding is helping companies and people really sort of break out of that cycle of fear, which holds people back and holds teams back, but we see it quite often, right, in workplaces like I've been in and around corporate America a long time, I've seen it too, I've been in places where you didn't really speak up for fear of fear of, you know, that kind of fear, and I know you guys work on this with your clients. How does the team building approach in the exercises that you work with clients help help companies think a little bit differently about fear and being a little bit more open to those kinds of creative expressions? David Goldstein 9:17 I think the idea is, you know, fear of judgment, you know, people don't want to be judged, they want to in the workplace, and when they're doing things that mean something to their, to their clients, they need to be trusted and trust each other, so by getting to know people a little bit better, you might get to know someone playing with them for an hour or two with, you know, creating a pipeline or creating a boat that builds a cardboard and floats, and then you trust people because they built your blood in your boat, and you've got us, you know, let it sink or swim, so it gives them a safe place to play and stories to talk about. You've got something, you know, if we did something together, we would. Have we get to know each other a little bit better because we're in person and we're having an experience and we're doing something, we're overcoming a challenge, and that gives us something in common. Steve 10:10 Yeah, and then later on, right back at the workplace, when some challenge comes up or some problem appears, arises, that, oh. David Goldstein 10:16 You know, Steve told me that he does this at home, he builds this, and maybe, oh, well, Steve will be able to help me with this. Steve 10:23 All of a sudden, we've got a shared experience, right? We've got some common ground, right, which, which we didn't have before, and that that makes perfect sense, right? Because often, particularly in the modern world of work, right, when we're having less in general, right, less gathering together, less people together in the same physical space. We're still doing a lot of remote work, many places, hybrid work in many places, right? Where those shared experiences, where we can, we can learn about each other, become a little bit more comfortable with each other. They're harder to fashion, potentially, because they're not happening. David Goldstein 10:59 You've only, they're not happening just happening center, not organically water. Yeah, it's almost have to create something that puts them in a situation that they can know each other. And the one thing I didn't talk about is the charitable work. Half of the things that we do give back to charity, so the employees appreciate the fact that a company is going to build a bicycle for children that have never had a bicycle, or build a skateboard for children who have had skateboards, or build hands for people in other countries whose hands have been blown off, they get to do things in that two to three hour period that actually affects not just each other but people outside their company in the world. Steve 11:42 Yeah, I didn't, I didn't think about that, but that's such, that's such an excellent point, because not only are you getting the benefits that could accrue to the team and to the individuals from the exercises themselves and participating in them and opening up and sharing and participating, but also right, that that element of giving back, being good stewards in the community, doing something that's got a little bit of a higher purpose attached to it, right? Because sometimes our jobs don't always feel that way, right? Depending on the kind of job we got, right? That's fantastic. That's, I, that's.. I love that benefit. Yeah. David Goldstein 12:17 That's the thing that I'm most proud of, the things that we do in the community, and it's the most fun for our people to create those experiences, like we have a program that I partnered with. The band was called Foster the People. They did. Steve 12:32 I know that. Yeah. David Goldstein 12:33 So when they did a tour, they would take two busses, they would take their tour bus, and they would take a second bus to help in the community, called the Do Good Bus. Wow, and I licensed that from them, and we have the do-good bus that will pick the company up at their office, take them to a charity, they get to do something for the charity, they get to have lunch, they get to learn about the charity, they come back home or back to their office, and they may go volunteer for the charity again, because it opened them up to a new experience, and nothing better. Steve 12:57 That's fantastic. Yeah, David. I'm so glad you shared that, because that's like I said, the double benefit of that is remarkable, and I know it can be difficult to find ways right to participate more fully in community, right? Because look, many of us are busy, our lives are busy outside of work, but when an organization steps up in that way, right? It shows not only that they're caring about their people and their development and their experience, but also caring about the community that they're operating in. Is, I mean, that's fantastic, and the benefits to that got to be just amazing all around. David Goldstein 13:35 Well, it just, just, it lasts. Steve 13:37 Yeah. So, yeah, David, the book talks a lot about play, right, and it, that's something we don't talk about much at work, honestly, right. And in honest, if you probably walked into, and you probably have worked, walked into many CEO-type offices in your career, and talked about play, or broached the subject of play, and have been met with quizzical or expressions, and or downright, you know, get out of here, you're crazy, right? We're a business, we're doing xyz, right? I'd love to, you to talk a little bit about the connection between play and what we really are after here, which is safety, inclusion, and just better engagement and ultimately performance. How does play, how does that factor into some of these considerations? You know, as you guys work with clients. David Goldstein 14:31 Well, it's interesting. We're one of the things we do a lot is create new programs, and we try to come up with trends and things that people like, and we've done different things, like we were looking yesterday at adult recess. Now, what can people feel comfortable when you go back to the things that you did in the playground, the kind of things that are simple. So, we do an Olympic program, which they may jump in buckets or pass something between their legs or pass on. And you know, in different ways, it just, it just brings back the memory of childhood and just fun, and build the outcomes into the fun. I think people will enjoy it, so when they come to us, they're like, well, let's see, do we want to do spy school, do we want to do, you know, the summer camp throwback, you know, what do we want to do that fits our group, and that fits what we're, you know, what we're doing. I think is the easiest thing that connects us all. Steve 15:27 Yeah, because we think about it, right? We think about those childhood experiences, certainly, as well, and we think about just in some ways freedom, right? Play is, you can let your guard down, you maybe lose track of time, you're just having the experience, you're not as guarded, perhaps. In, yeah, and a little bit about, I think the book talks about this as well in play. Also, it's okay to fail, right, because that's part of it, right? In these exercises or activities, if they're games or competitions, if you will. David Goldstein 16:01 And fail, and then improve. So, there's a pro that they build a pipeline, and you have to, you have to get a ball to go from one end to the other, and then they do it, and then they go, "Okay, great, they did a great job. Okay, now, what can you do to improve that? I go back and go, "This is, you know, if we do it this way, or we change this around, and change, so the play, you know, is the connector, and the outcome is being able to go back and finish it and change it, and you can bring that type of opportunity back to the office, and what your product is, or what your service is, and you can see how you can improve it. Steve 16:34 Yeah, yeah. Now that makes perfect sense. And again, there's a great through line here, right? And the book's structured really, really well, right, because it helps you, takes you through this, right, it takes you through some of the science and the theory behind it, why it works, why it can have impact in results in organizations. David, one thing I wanted to make sure I asked you, because I bet a lot of the folks, even maybe not a lot, at least some of the folks listening to this, right, are corporate types, right, and have to, of course, you know, justify any investments that you're doing, right, in people, and I hate to say this, we're, I know, look, the business world is what it is, and all that, but you know, this is an investment in people, right, team building is an investment in people, it's an investment in their, their safety, their inclusivity, their belonging, and ultimately their performance, right. But, of course, people have to justify these types of expenditures because they're, you know, they're their training and development, essentially, right. So, when you work with potential clients or current clients, do you have when you have those conversations about, hey, this is why this makes sense. Here's, here's some of the outcomes we expect you will, you know, see from these efforts. What are the kinds of things you got, you guys point to, and you talk about? David Goldstein 17:54 Well, I think the idea is you want to give people permission to fail. You want to allow them to fail, and you know, and look into curiosity. You want your people to be curious, you want them to take risks at work, you want them to come up with the new ideas. And I think if you can practice that in a safe environment, it allows it to be transferred back. So the desired outcomes and the return on investment is having people that you know, we, I have a small company. We have about 30 people, and you know, I want people to want to come to work. You want to like the people that they work with. I want, you know, them to, you know, to enjoy as much time as we spend at work. It should be an enjoyable experience, especially now when people want to work at home. Yeah, coming to the office, or you know, being, you know, with these people, you spend more time with sometimes your people at work than you do with your people at home. Steve 18:47 Yeah, true. David Goldstein 18:48 And if it's not a good experience, it's, you'll have a tough time retaining the talent. Steve 18:53 Yeah, yeah. And when you're feeling enthused, when you're feeling engaged, when you feel like you can participate fully, which many of us don't feel. Right, there's always examples or stories we could probably even tell in our own careers, where, oh yeah, I was working at XYZ Place, and there was a time where I wanted to do this, or wanted to do that, or I wanted to speak up, and I maybe I couldn't, or I felt afraid to, and things, so I think through team building, and as you've called the company TeamBonding, you can facilitate in a climate and an environment where people just feel a little more engaged, little safer, they feel like they can participate a little bit more fully, because ultimately we want people who can do that, or is why do you have them? Right, like I feel like so many companies bring people in, spend a lot of money to recruit them, train them, maybe on the technical elements of their job, and then don't let them kind of thrive in the job, if that makes sense. David Goldstein 19:56 Exactly and the amount of money that they spend, you know. Getting the people into the, you want to, you want to keep them, you want them to stay longer and invest in it personally and professionally. And I think team building, it's somewhat of a generic term, but there's so much more to it than just, Steve 20:14 Yeah. David Goldstein 20:15 You know, there's other ways that you connect and other ways that you benefit. I think it's we even do a work with one company, we do all their volunteer work, so we'll create volunteer opportunities where they can use their talents to help other people in the community, so there's team building is fluid, I think it can be what you want it to be, but we want it to be is not a waste of money, you don't want to do just something you know, silly and fun. You want to do something that really connects the people, and you know, they learn something, and they do something, and they share something, and they bring back, you know, that experience to better themselves. Steve 20:53 Yeah, and that's why I think it makes a lot of sense, really, to do this right if you want to have the best outcome and the base, the most impact in your organization, I think partnering with a company like yours, David, is that's the way you have to go. I don't think to me the waste, if there is, would be just you generically saying, okay, we're going to take an hour and do a break the ice thing, you know, before our town hall meeting that you pulled off the internet or through some AI tool or something, right? Like those are the things that people really dislike, and they really probably don't have any impact, right, ultimately. David Goldstein 21:32 And what AI can, you know, is so much today I can do it, can you know write emails, it can do data collection, right, but it cannot bond people together, I think you know your company, you got a human experience. I think that's the differentiator. Yeah, you want people to know the people that answer my phone, that you know that go out to our events, I want them to be representatives of the company and feel good about where they work. Yeah, I think that should be everyone. Steve 21:58 I almost get the sense, and maybe you can, you can comment on this, David, if you're, if you're seeing this yet, can kind of come back in your, in the inquiries, maybe that you're receiving in this age of tech and AI, and just more and more disconnection in more, more work, say going to automation and things like that. I wonder if companies and people want more connection, and they're looking for it, because they're just not getting it as much in their normal day to day. David Goldstein 22:26 I think at this point there are five generations of people that are working in an office, someone my age and someone you know, actually my two of my daughters work for TeamBonding, so they're significantly younger, and there's got to be ways to bond the people that are in the different ages, the different generations that are working together, because they're a little bit different nowadays. Steve 22:45 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's a super point as well, right? Because most organizations are probably in the, in that bucket, right? They're having young Gen Zers coming in, 21, 22 etc. right, up to, you know, folks like me, and beyond, right, we're a little bit older, right, and our experience is certainly different, but also needing to work together effectively, wanting that shared experience is something. David, I guess the last thing I would want to ask you is when you're thinking about your organization and whether or not, say, a more a structured team building program, working with a partner like yours would make sense. What are the things you would would have our listeners just think about, or ask themselves, or ask their organization? Hey, would this make sense for us, and should we pursue this? What are the kinds of things companies should think about? David Goldstein 23:43 Think it's the expectations. So, in other words, you know, we would get a call, and I used to be in the sales area, and they're like, okay, what can we expect to learn from this? Well, you've got two and a half hours, you know, there's only so much we can do in two and a half hours. So, what you really should do is look at it as not just a one-time, one-shot deal. You know, I need building these people, I need to come together. Let's fix it right longer, you know. Can you do, you know, once a quarter? Can you do it, you know, seasonally? Can you, who do you do it for? So, I think it's not a quick fix, it's something that it's a long-term, you know, relationship type of thing, you know. What can I now to do this, and then what can we do later to reinforce it? One of the things we used to do when I started the Murder Mysteries is we would talk to a client and say, what did you have for dinner last year, your holiday party, and they would say, I don't remember what we did, you know, a casino night, we did a game show, we did a murder mystery, they always remembered the experience. Steve 24:41 Right. David Goldstein 24:42 And they're not going to remember then you've so you got to spend as much time on the experience as you do on what they're going to have for lunch. Steve 24:50 Yeah, and I think the long-term impact of this is really where, where it plays out, right, in people being more, being more. David Goldstein 24:58 Plays out. Steve 24:59 yeah. David Goldstein 25:00 Yeah, you mentioned plays out of his, yeah. Steve 25:03 Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think David, the book is called Beyond Trust Falls, the definitive guide for building teams that click. The company's TeamBonding, is there anything else we could share, or just tell folks to come to the website, connect with the team there, learn more about what team bonding is up to. I know you guys have been wildly successful. You've made the ink list many, many times, like it's.. it's remarkable. So, congratulations on that. And just any, any kind of other words you might want to leave our audience with. David Goldstein 25:33 I think the website's helpful, but the book.. well, the interesting part about the book is I worked with a bunch of people that I work with, facilitators and event managers, and people that have created these experiences, and we have a lot of different do-it-yourself things. So, if you can't afford it, or if you can't, you want to try something, there are pages and pages of different opportunities that you can take out of the book and try. Yeah, yeah, it was my first book. I'm excited about it. It's.. I can't believe, you know, that I.. you know, I have something that I can.. you know, it's tangible after all these years. Steve 26:01 Yeah, it's really cool, yeah, that's exciting, yeah, it's great. Well, we'll put links in the show notes to the website, as well as to get the book, as well. I've read through it, it said it's a great read, it's an easy read, but, but, but a really good one, like I said, I left thinking, oh, you know, Mr. Corporate Guy, been around the block with team building, really, like, and, and I thought, this is not, at the end of the book. I'm going to steal your words, David. You said the future of teams depends on extraordinary leaders willing to invest in the human need to find connection, purpose, and belonging. I couldn't.. I mean, God, I wish I would have written that. We say that all the time on this show. We talk about it all the time on the show. Why people like us are trying to do what we're doing to make workplaces better for the people who inhabit them, so they can do their best work, they can thrive, they can support their communities, they can support their families. This is part of that story, I think. I firmly believe it. So, you won me over, right, as Gen X cynical guy thinking, oh my god, you know, I don't want to talk about that. You know, I think if I was participating in one of your guys' activities, like I'd be all in, because it would be like something I know would help. So, congratulations. David Goldstein 27:14 You mentioned you're in outside of Chicago, if you are in Illinois. If you'd like to see an event or participate in an event, I'll be happy to let you know when we have them in your area. Steve 27:24 Awesome, I love it. David, David Goldstein from TeamBonding. It's been a great conversation today. I love the topic. I'm so glad we got a chance to talk about it. So, thank you for joining us today. David Goldstein 27:36 Thank you for having me. This was a pleasure. Steve 27:38 Awesome, great stuff. All right, remember everybody, go to HRHappyHour.net for all the show archives. Go on YouTube, Spotify, all the places. Get the podcast. The network is really doing great stuff. I want to also thank our friends at Workhuman, of course, for all their support. For our guest, David Goldstein, my name is Steve Boese. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai