Steve 0:09 The HR Happy Hour Network is proudly sponsored by Workhuman. Nearly nine in ten HR leaders say they don't have a strong leadership bench. Workhuman's future leaders gives organizations a smarter way to build one. Future Leaders is the first talent intelligence solution to identify high potential VP plus talent already within your workforce up to four years before promotion. Using proprietary AI and real-time recognition data, it uncovers the leadership signals hidden in everyday work, long before traditional succession planning can, it's a smarter, data-driven approach to building tomorrow's leaders. Learn more at workhuman.com. Thanks for joining us. Welcome back to the At Work in America Show. My name's Steve Boese. I'm with Trish Steed. Trish, how are you? What is happening? Trish 1:01 I'm good. I'm back to work, sort of a little smidge. So, after four and a half weeks, I get oh, I guess four weeks off, kind of easing back into it. But the first recording, so I'm super excited for today's show. Steve 1:15 You're like a European worker, you know, taking a summer off, right, and disappearing. Trish 1:20 Let me tell you what I would say. Don't take a summer off if what you're doing is getting a new knee because it is painful. So, yeah, vacation should be relaxing and pain free. So I'm definitely not vacationing, but I'm going to be super excited when this thing starts really working. Positive news: I rode my recumbent bike for 45 minutes on Sunday. Steve 1:42 Wow! Trish 1:43 So yeah, that was at like four and a half weeks. So Steve 1:46 is that like a stationary bike, or you out on the street on that thing? Trish 1:50 No, it's a stationary bike, but you know you're you're like leaned back a little further, so it takes that pressure a little bit of pressure off your knees. It's not like a regular bike. So Steve 1:59 Yeah. Trish 2:00 But still very hard. You quickly go from like not being able to do anything to all of a sudden you can can just do it. So Steve 2:08 Yeah, yes. Well, welcome back. Good, good, good to having you back. And did a few shows in your absence, and and folks can check those out on hrhappyhour.net or our YouTube channel or Spotify, wherever. But yeah, we're excited for today's show. No guest today, you know why, Trish? Because when you're talking Workplace Moving Hall of Fame, we're revisiting a topic and and and sort of the same show, even though it's a new season of the same show we did last year, which is America's Sweethearts, which is a story behind the scenes documentary of the famous Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. It's on Netflix. Seven episodes in the current season. Season three, by the way, I had to look that up. Wasn't sure if it was two or three. It's season three that's out there now. Emmy Award nominated, by the way. I don't even know if we know that. Trish 2:57 I heard that. Yeah, yeah Steve 3:01 And they were nominated in a category called Outstanding Unstructured Reality Program, which seems quite specific, but it's it's up against shows like the Ru Paul's Drag Race and Welcome to Wrexham, the soccer documentary, and I forget what else, but so yeah, this is a big story for folks who haven't seen this or don't recall it from the last time we talked about it. This is a really fascinating topic because it's probably 87% about work and the job of being a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader, and the job of being a manager and a leader of the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. Trish, what did you think of of season three? Say maybe even compared to season two. Trish 3:54 Yeah. So if I'm being honest, when we did it, I enjoyed watching season two. I had seen not season one, but I think they had another show even prior to that. I forget what it was called, but something ones, right? So I had seen bits and pieces here and there, and season two was all about work, right? And I I enjoyed it, but I kind of thought like when when Karen, our producer, said, "Oh, we're going to do another season, I was like, really, what? Like, what else could there be? Right, we've kind of covered it. No, I'm so glad, and I'm so glad I was like laid up at home because I binged it yesterday and little the last little bit this morning. And I know we're gonna dig all into it. So many changes that they have made since last season in the way they work, and in the way that the girls are treated, and the way that the leaders are showing up. So yeah, it was a total. If you've not seen it, or if you're not even thinking about it, I actually liked this season better in terms of really thinking about not just myself as a leader over the years, but just working in general, I thought it was much more valuable. I don't know. What did you think when you watched it? Steve 5:04 Yeah, I loved it quite a bit, and I think the reasons, some of the reasons why I think you're seeing the differences in in the documentary and in the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader organization, Trish 5:17 Yeah. Steve 5:17 is for folks who don't know, there was a really significant pay increase that got implemented in advance, really, of the season that there this documentary is is showing. Right, this documentary is about a year old, so it's taking you through the tryouts and the auditions and the practices and and really the last season of of the of the football season for for the for the cheerleaders, so that that would be the 2025 into 2026 season. Yeah, for folks who don't know, that was was highly controversial because the the cheerleaders for Dallas, as well as I think just about all the other teams in professional sports, had very very low pay, no benefits, just kind of were exploited, right? And and I know last year when we did our podcast about about the season, I'm certain I went off on a rant about how the workers, in this case, the cheerleaders, are being exploited by the fact that so many people want to be on this team? It's a very prestigious job in in this world and in this in this profession, both the profession of cheerleading, but also even just dancing in general. Right? It's a very highly sought after job, and there's lots and lots of people trying out for it. And the organization knows this, and therefore didn't really have to do very much to make working conditions, you know, palatable, safe, friendly, you know, pay them fairly, et cetera, et cetera. The cheerleaders finally got together. You don't really see this much in the documentary, but what what was happening sort of outside the documentary was the the group got together and just went hard at the organization to increase wages significantly? And Trish, I did look this up right before the show. I don't know if you you had a chance to, but their pay, their rate of pay went from $15 an hour for rehearsal time to $75 an hour for rehearsal time. Their per game fees went from about $500 per game per per cheerleader to $2,500 per game, and their appearance fees. They do lots of other things besides cheer at these games, right? They do corporate appearances, they do calendar shoots, they do other promotional things. All went up as well, and according to these Gemini that I looked up this morning, that the top compensated cheerleaders can make up to $150,000 a year by doing a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. So, long story short, Trish, the this job is much much different, right? Based on just working conditions and compensation from the job that we talked about, even just a year ago on this podcast. Trish 8:05 Absolutely. I thought it was really interesting. They catch you right at the beginning of it with one of the cheerleaders, you know, one of the veterans saying she has had to become, you know, an HR person, a therapist, all these different things, hats that she's wearing to go through getting this increase, right? So they didn't make it easy. I mean, this organization. When you think about how many billions of dollars this this organization produces, right? With all sorts of things, brand deals, and and everything else beyond just the football tickets, right? That people think of, and to think about because I'm like you, I looked it up and I said $15 an hour. What in the world? Well, think about now though. If you could make 150,000, boy, the competition's going to get even more strong next year, right? For well, for what they're probably doing right now, right? Because it's always filmed in summer, so you know they're they've probably decided at this point because we're almost to football season, right? But yeah, this summer, I'm sure the numbers had to have gone up in terms of people coming from all around the world to try out. Steve 9:10 Yeah, it's notable in the documentary. The team is structured; it's a big team. There are 36 cheerleaders on the team, right? Who who go through the audition process and get selected, make the cut, etc. They know at the beginning part of the documentary how many of the prior year cheerleaders are want to return and and remain on the teaming. It was 30 out of the 36 from the prior season, which they talk about a few times on the show. The the managers there and the leaders talk about that being you know a record number of returnees. I'm certain one of the reasons, if not the primary reason, right for a record number of returnees is all of a sudden they were going to start making money. They they're finally we're going to start getting paid, and so the job just itself became much better. Even just in terms of compensation, all of a sudden, hey, I can maybe make a living. I don't have to get another job. If you remember, Trish, on the last season we did this documentary and we we and we did the podcast. Almost every one of the cheerleaders that that that were featured that I can recall had another job. They had a day job, right, to keep themselves alive and pay their bills and pay their rent because the training job paid almost nothing. Trish 10:26 Yeah, and these were young, you know, these are for the most part younger women, typically early 20s, and so even a full time job isn't probably paying them a ton, whatever that is. Some were nurses and some were in other fields, but yeah, they're not. These aren't like workers, you know, who can just do this in their free time with no money, right? So these are girls that actually needed the money, and they deserve the money. They, if you if you don't know anything about the entire, you know, cheer and dance side of things, it it looks so exhausting. They are working. They work all day and then they'd come in and work until midnight dancing and do routines and so yeah, it's and the scrutiny too on these girls is so great that it was just exhausting them. So I am glad to see that they've at least addressed the money issue. I I think the other thing I was really happy they did was they must have done some type of survey the leaders right so we have Judy Tramell and Kelly Finlass who were both cheerleaders for them in the 80s one is the choreographer now that you know head choreographer one is the director and and then you see a little bit of of Charlotte Jones right who's who's Jerry Jones's daughter? Sort of in charge of brand. So, and I thought she came across a lot sweeter than last year. So, Steve 11:49 I she did, and I'm I'm guessing. Yeah. Trish 11:53 Someone talked to her. Little brand, a little brand awareness, maybe. Yeah. So, but but my point being, I think that by by the pay being sort of taken off the table, like we know they're being paid well now, because they said it was like a 400% increase, right? I think this season for me, what I felt was really different was they must have done a survey because the two main sort of director and choreographer lead they allude to it throughout the season, and I can't even tell you, Steve. I made pages and pages of notes about how free I was at those two, and I personally went to fly down to Dallas and have an HR conversation with those two ladies. I was upset on my couch. I don't know how'd you feel. Steve 12:48 I'll send this. So we have now, as we've mentioned, we've watched this documentary, and this is our second podcast where we're talking about this show. One net to the next, I do think these two leaders, right, the the the organizational leaders who are probably in their midish 50s, if I would have guessed, maybe a little older. I don't know. Trish 13:07 One is 61. Kelly is 61, and Judy is 68. Steve 13:12 Okay, so kind of boomer, really, then or heavy top end of Gen X or a boomer, right? And they they did come off on season two that we watched and did the podcast on last year, very tone deaf, very out of touch, very very unlikable, quite frankly. And you know, and I was really tough on them, as I recall. I do think both of them have softened quite a bit, but also taken feedback from the team members. Right, the team members repeatedly. There's one scene we see throughout the entire seven episodes. It comes up at least four or five, maybe even half a dozen times, where team members talk about wanting more feedback, wanting to to have more real interactions with the team leaders, with the bosses, essentially want to hear what they think, want good and bad, but especially good, right? They want it. They they want recognition, right? Shout out to our friends at Workhuman who sponsored the podcast, right? They are calling out for that recognition and being recognized for their for their contributions and their hard work, and it's a very very big deal to these team members who, as you said again, Trish, are probably ranging from 20, 21, 22 on the low end to maybe 27, 28 on the high end. So they're they're Gen Zers, right? Pretty much the whole lot of them really want that feedback, and I thought both the bosses were much more in tune to that this year. I didn't come away from this year seeing say, "Man, those bosses are-they're so out of touch. They're so like they need to go. I did think you know the team could use maybe a third leader in the mix, maybe maybe they should hire like an assistant director who's maybe a more recent former cheerleader on the team to kind of be a liaison to the team members and maybe kind of really groom someone, right? As you said, these leaders are 61 and 68. I'm guessing they're not going to do this forever, right? Where is the next set of leaders going to come from? It's probably time for this organization to start thinking about that as well. So that's I came off much more positive this year about leadership and kind of the lessons they've learned and and and their growth as leaders, honestly. Trish 15:40 So I'm probably going to be the little opposing view, which I love when we kind of disagree. You know what? I came across, or they came across to me worse than last year, and here's why. This is truly the HR hat on. Okay, if I were the HR CHRO there for that organization. I would fire them both, and here's why. Because at 61 and 68, it is not my job to start teaching you how to become a leader. If you don't know it by 61 and 68, out the door, like you mentioned, there are plenty other former DCC cheerleaders or qualified individuals who can come in there and actually show they care. And I want to read something because I wrote this down. So do you remember? There's a point. I have an example. Even okay, here's why. Because on paper, yes. Did they do a survey? Are there a few moments where it's like, oh, you know, I hate Klein, but I love her. No, you actually don't love her. You hate her. You've said that first, right? I get it. So I have my little HR ears on for this. There's a portion in one of the episodes where they're announcing, like, obviously, if you're the front cheerleader in the point when they're all upfield, right? That is the spot. That is the most coveted spot. So some of the feedback must have said, "We want more chances to be in that spot. So they're they're announcing we're gonna in our first four games we're gonna switch the girls, right? So they they say the first one, oh, so and so is gonna be our point in game one, all the girls! Oh my gosh! Everybody's so excited. They're cheering. They're surrounding the girl, hugging. Everybody's hugging. What are the two leaders doing? They're standing at the side, annoyed. The next one gets announced for game two. Again, everybody's happy hugging because this is the biggest moment you can give one of these girls, one of these veterans, who's been working on this for years, to be the point, right? And and I wrote down Kelly and Judy have actual contempt for their cheerleaders. When announcing the rotating point of the triangle, they showed it. Judy, the choreographer, actually her exact words were, "Are they going to hug every time? And Kelly was like, "I guess so. Like that, like this face. I guess so. And then they announced the other two, and of course, there. So you literally have two leaders. Yes, are they listening to what the survey said and doing a new thing, they are. But what the girls didn't see, and I hope to God they don't watch it back, is contempt. Because then, when Kelly says something like "Congrat, I don't know if I can do it. Congratulations! And she purses her lips and kind of half smiles with one side up, dude. That is contempt. It's disdain. So, right there, if I were if I were Charlotte, their boss, I'd go downstairs right now, Charlotte Jones, and fire those two because it's not going. Here's the thing: you can't train that out of someone. Once you have contempt and disdain for your employees. You cannot train it out. So I don't know. Been in HR. It'll be 30 years next year, and that's my takeaway on their leadership. I think they both deserve to be fired. I think their days are done. And I think when you look at the end of who stayed and who go, who who went, and I won't give any spoilers, but a shocking number are not coming back for this year, and it's because of that. You can't hide disdain. You cannot hide your contempt when you're at work. Steve 19:32 Well, I I remember that scene. I I didn't leave it as harshly critical of the two leaders as you. I I do recall you, and what you said is true. Those are the while the team members were sort of celebrating and congratulating each other for for for this achievement of being selected to be the you know the leader right for for the various games. They were a little bit annoyed that that that was happening. To me, it seemed. Or like they just, you know, wanted to get on this. Trish 20:04 Okay, message for all leaders: it might not be a big deal to you, but think back; those were both former cheerleaders. I don't know if they ever got point. Maybe they're jealous they never got point. I don't know, but that's a big deal when you think about your employees. Just because it's you can't remember you never had that when you were in your 20s whatever it is, my God, let them celebrate. What is seriously 10 extra seconds of hugging four times? We're talking about a minute's worth of hugging. Steve 20:33 Yeah. Trish 20:33 We don't have time for a minute of hugging, but we're this new. They need Workhuman. I'm not even kidding you. Like that's the kind of organization where you think that even spending a minute letting people be happy and recognize each other's accomplishments is too much. Steve 20:49 Yeah. Trish 20:50 I would literally fire any leader I saw doing that shit. Steve 20:53 Yeah, the the team members were were crying out for feedback and recognition throughout the entire season. There's no doubt about that, and maybe this speaks to some of some of the tension there in that particular scene. Kind of speaks to just you know some of these scenes playing out in organizations all over the place now, which is they're they're kind of just differences in how generations think about work, think about the workplace, think about the relationships at work. I mean, Gen Zs are different. They are right. They are, and we've got a couple of leaders who are much, much older. Probably back in the 80s when they were on the team. Maybe, maybe the the celebrations and the you know were were different. They were more needed. If you dig into, they didn't really talk about it in this season. In season two, they spent a little bit of time talking about the origins of the DCC and the person who was in charge before Kelly was a real hardcore, tough person, right? And so they came up in that in that world, right? In in in a culture of an organization that was much much different, right? And so, the the Gen Z cheerleaders of today are really trying to move the culture, even though they probably are not sitting around talking about hey, let's change the culture of this organization. That's what they're doing, right? Just through how they interact, how they want to interact, how they want to interact with their bosses. So another huge undercurrent of this season is what's happening outside of work, right? For these cheerleaders, because through through these Net Flix documentaries, in particular, right over the last couple years, the DCC itself has gotten even more popular than they were, and and the cheerleaders themselves are more famous, more in demand. Many of them, right, and we see this in the documentary. Many of them are earning quite lucrative careers for themselves outside of DCC, right? Doing sponsored posts and appearances and interviews, whatever they're doing, right? Podcast appearances, and there's a lot of tension. Now, this thing's not a normal workplace thing. I don't want to spend too much time on this show talking about this because most of our workplaces and most of the leaders who are listening to this don't have to worry about their their staff doing brand deals right outside of work and having that being you know a big deal in the workplace because that's just not what happens, right? But for for these guys, it was it was a big deal, and just I think the the generational kind of tension here is is really what's playing out, both in that scene that you described, Trish, and I think throughout this documentary, and when you have 36 Gen Z, high achieving, talented people as well, right? All together, really bonded, really together, trying to move an organization in a certain way. The clash between their their boomer leaders and that is it's it's it's fascinating to watch. To me, that's the most interesting thing in this whole documentary. Trish 24:00 Yeah, I mean, we don't have to go into more examples, but it it shows up throughout. And and are they trying? Yeah, you see them trying in in bits and bytes, right? But they don't understand. And maybe that's you know, it's hard enough to be a leader, right? We've both been in business a long time. We have trained many leaders. We have been trained ourselves as leaders, you and I both grew up in very different fields, but we both had those hard-nosed bosses in our careers who didn't care what we wanted when we were in our 20s and said, "Go sit your butt down in your seat and do your job. Right? There was no rewards and recognition. Oh my gosh, if I got a raise, that's your reward and recognition right there. You know, so I get it, and and I've been that boss maybe where I wasn't appreciating right when the millennials were kind of coming in behind us. So I do understand, but I don't feel like that's an excuse to not change. Gen Z aren't the ones. This is for every leader. Gen Z, they don't need to change. This work. World is now becoming theirs. If we want to stay in positions of power and leadership and innovation in our organizations, we have to adapt. And that-that was what was annoying me. I thought, boy, they're kind of focusing so much on the girls. I just hope if they're still around next year, I hope there's some method to address what Judy and Kelly have to do to be better leaders, because I think they're missing the mark. Just having a survey and doing a couple, like, "Oh, you mean I need to tell you I love you? Okay, I love you. That's not genuine. So I guess that's what was missing for me. Steve 25:38 Yeah I've seen you too. You've been much tougher on these two than than I left with. I think they've made a lot of progress now. Perhaps I'm I'm overestimating giving them too much credit, but. Trish 25:52 But having turnover now, right? Now that you've taken away the money as an issue, are they having more turnover in this 2025-26 football season than they have had in the past? Yes, they have, and so that's what it gets down to. So by the time that the the Dallas organization, the Cowboys organization, figures this all out and catches up, it's too late because I guarantee that those ladies are still there now at age 62 and 69. Now, in some ways, are is you know look, I'm 55. I'm not saying like, oh my gosh, get rid of you at 60, right? What I'm saying is, if you're not willing or able to adapt without contempt for your employees, I don't care how old you are. I don't care if you're 30 or 40 or 50. You need to be fired because you are you are hurting your organization. You are hurting that movement that that 36 cheerleaders worked so hard for, and that's what bothers me, you know. And are they doing brand deals and other things? Yeah, these girls. I even wrote down like, what other jobs have a weeks long interview process where you work and you're on a TV show and you're doing all these appearances and then you don't get the job? What? The whole thing. Look, the whole thing to me is a little crazy, Steve. It's crazy. Steve 27:20 Well, they they have a really arduous process for selection, really. And I guess if you want to talk about HR and workplace issues, I think there, you know, there's really probably three major ones. Right, it's worth watching this documentary for. It's the leadership tension we've talked about. It's the kind of Gen Z influence in work and workplaces that we've talked about, the compensation issues we talked about, is three, and I guess the four. I guess the four. The fourth one is sort of the selection process here, right? So the recruiting evaluation and the selection process, as well as the the cut process, right? The some of the most poignant and emotional scenes in this documentary are when applicants are cut from the team and aren't going to make the team, and they-they, you know, to their credit, this is all filmed and shown in this documentary, at least most of it. Right? We don't see every single person getting left cut from the team, but we see quite a few of them, and you know it's devastating, right? And for these these applicants who one of whom I forget her name, but you know she was her first time trying out for the team, had said to the coaches, and we we see some of her backstory documenting. It was her dream since five, six years old, right? I want to be a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader, and she got really close to making it within the last two or three cuts and didn't make it, right? So, her. Trish 28:50 Here's a question for you on that specifically, okay? And and I know you don't know this is coming, but did you? How did you feel? Because Kelly almost always says the words, and Judy is just sitting next to her. Steve 29:03 Right, Kelly was in charge. Yes. Trish 29:05 How did you feel Kelly handled herself with those women that she was cutting? Do you feel like she did it with compassion, or do you feel like she just did it? Steve 29:16 I actually think she does a pretty good job at that. She's she doesn't sugarcoat it. You've done Trish, as we've talked about on the show a number of times. You have terminated my list. I did over them. I'm like, oh my god! You've terminated people. I think she doesn't have a good job. She doesn't sugarcoat it. She tells them flat out. She gives them reasons why. She she talks. Typically, she'll say your kicks aren't good, or you're not sitting in. You're not standing. Whatever, right? You're you're one year away, maybe from being ready for this. You know, you should be proud of yourself, but you're not going to make it. I I think she actually does a pretty good job in those conversations. Trish 29:56 Yeah. Steve 29:56 Am I wrong? Trish 29:58 No, I was on board with you. Until the one girl that was her favorite, because a I was shocked she actually got had to cut her favorite, but she kind of got pushed by her boss to get to. Steve 30:09 A little bit, yeah. Trish 30:11 So it was pretty clear Charlotte was like, yeah, this isn't her time. So Kelly did have to cut her favorite. When you compare the way she did it with such warmth and love and compassion for that girl. Oh, and you better come back. You better try out next time. What about all the other ones that were phenomenal? And this was also around the time where they tell you that one of the girls-I don't want to say because I'm gonna spoil everything-but one of the girls. So at this point, we've already got your your veteran. There's four leaders and co leaders basically of the four sections of the football field, four corners. And so those girls had already been announced. So they called them in and they said, "Hey, what do you all think before we make these final cuts? Right. Yeah. Last few. Put your sticker. Here's your stickers. Your colored stickers. Put it on the ones you want to keep. Who you've seen. Now Kelly isn't even there all the time. Kelly and Judy are not there all the time. It's the actual team leaders, fellow cheerleaders, who are watching these women develop through this training camp. Those women put their stickers on certain ones. One girl got one sticker. Guess who made the team? Guess who Kelly decided made the team? Faith, because she liked Faith, because Charlotte liked Faith. So, again, have we really changed? Have we really grown? Have we really developed? Why? Okay, because if again, if I'm one of those eight team leaders, and I go back and watch that episode where I show I'm making my vote to keep this girl, here are my reasons, and a majority of us as team leaders say that's the one we want, or the two or three we want, and then our boss goes in, and those are the two or three they cut. You've just lost me. Steve 32:04 Yeah, I know. I I admit to not doing that quite as closely as you did, so I didn't I didn't catch that. But that's a good point. Trish 32:13 I'm a bit fired up, Steve. Steve 32:14 Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, this is right in normal hiring processes, right? You're bringing someone, particularly you know, maybe a senior role. Other other team members might get the chance to sit with that candidate or all candidates, get to know them, interview them a little bit, talk to them, and then ultimately the VP or the CEO or someone like that's going to make the hiring decision, and and then it might not go against what the team members you know recommend. Right, that happens all the time. Trish 32:43 Don't ask the team members then, because it sends message. I'm sorry, it sends a subliminal message or maybe right message to those leaders. Like, okay, my boy, yeah, they asked me. That's different. Steve 32:55 Yeah, they didn't. Trish 32:56 They didn't listen, like they never do. So again, I, I, I'm just trying to think pure, like what as an HR leader, what should be done? Only, only ask for input if you're actually going to do something meaningful with it. Otherwise, don't ask. You're you're hurting yourself more. Again, when you look at your turnover at the end of that season, yeah, right. So. Steve 33:20 Yeah, there there is so much here. You know, you would think I the first time we did this last year, I would have thought, why I'm doing this? Maybe because Trish 33:30 I know. Steve 33:31 because you think, oh, it's a you know, it's a show about cheerleading, but you really dive into yeah, when you really dive into it, it's it's a show about kind of human interaction in the workplace. It's a show about leadership. It's a show about encouragement and recognition that we've talked about some. It's it's really at some levels it's a show about the role work and success has in people's lives. You really see both from the cheerleaders themselves, whose dreams are lifelong dreams to be on this team, and the huge change it's made in their lives, and they've architected their entire lives around having this job, which many of them discuss, and you see in in the documentary, as well as the coaches, right? We said you know Judy and and and and Callie there are 61 and 68 or 62 now whatever. You almost get the impression, at least I do, and I could be wrong. Who knows? I you know from watching two seasons of the show that those two are going to be dragged out of there, you know, screaming when they're finally they're not going to just retire anytime soon. Like, and Kelly even talks about right two two times in the documentary about oh I missed my kids and I missed this and I missed that I was like it's so well though they take these jobs maybe perhaps a little too seriously, but they do all right for what it's worth. And many of us, quite honestly, probably take our own jobs a little too seriously at times. And over in the course of our lives, have missed things in our lives we probably ought not to have missed, right? For for our silly jobs that we have, but they do, right? And it happens. That's it's a big part of working in America, right? So I do get the sense that it's a good reflection, and maybe you can take that away as well. Like you know, wow, you know, are what am I doing in my job? In my job, what am I asking my people to do? Maybe even a better question, right? They they ask so much of these team members, and you know they they ask a lot of themselves as well. And so it's it's really interesting from that perspective as well. I don't know that I have really a conclusion or a recommendation on it, but just maybe to just reflect on that a little bit if you do watch this or or you've already watched it, maybe think back about it. Like, what am I giving up? You know, to to achieve a certain level success in whatever field I'm in. Trish 36:08 Yeah, I think if you're in that situation, if you are, even if you're in your 30s, you still have reflection, right? Back on the decade before, so I would just say, is it worth it? Is what you're doing worth it? If you, in the case of Kelly, yes, did she say she she missed out on a lot with her own children? I might feel a little better about that for her if she was this really warm, compassionate crew coach to these young women, where she could look back and say, "Well, yes, in hindsight, I should have probably spent more time with my own children, but I did develop these really warm, compassionate, kind cheerleader athletes who became blah blah blah. Right? Like, I don't think she can say that though. I think that's the thing. You have if you are if you are not good at developing the people you actually made in this world, nor the ones in your workplace, then something's wrong. Something's off. At some point, maybe she was again. We're not seeing her. I know she started this right after her cheer seasons were up. You know, which was like late 80s, early 90s. She became the director, and maybe she was doing a lot of great stuff. I know marketing, you know, expanded tremendously under her leadership and her guidance. So, yeah. But as a people leader, I think there's a difference. I've worked in a lot of different kinds of environments over the the last 30 years, and there are people leaders, and there are like task leaders. She's a task leader to me. So you're right. We do need both a younger, upcoming, you know, replacement probably for both of them. They probably need two. If I were running in, I do two, and I would get someone who, you know, one of the things in the show notes. Then, and I don't know if you or Karen wrote this, but was talking about the invisible work of employees. And I'm going to read it because I think it's really good, and I don't want to paraphrase. Says, are they? They're rarely recognizing the employee who claims. I'm sorry, the employee who calms an anxious coworker, the manager who spends hours coaching someone through a difficult season, and the team member who quietly keeps everyone informed and corrected. And so, one of the this is just one of the people. Kelly just was on her all the time. Her name is Klein, because Klein doesn't always have discernment. At imagine at 22, not having discernment of when to open your mind to you. Like I, I, you could have said that about me probably even today. But to berate someone like that, but when the when the camera shows all that behind the scenes, invisible work that Klein is doing. She is the cheerleader for the cheerleaders. She's the one getting them fired up. She's the one to encourage them, and there are many others too. These veteran cheerleaders are doing; they're doing the work I wish the two bosses were doing. Steve 38:58 Yeah, yeah, I think there's some truth to that, and I think we see that in organizations as well, right? More senior employees, more senior members of the team, experienced members of the team, either explicitly or tacitly, right, expected to help bring along the new members of the team and encourage them and support them and help show them the ropes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We do see that a lot, and again, you know, shout out to our friends at Workuman, right? That's one of the great things that recognition in the workplace can help surface, right? Because in most workplaces, a lot of that work and those contributions just go unseen. But if you've got that that mechanism and that capacity to elevate those kinds of interactions and elevate those contributions through recognition. Specifically, then those things can become, you know, real, you know, explicit elements, right? That the organization can grab onto, learn from, to share, to you know. Insight from and and help train others on instead of so so many good things that come from it so great great you mentioned earlier Michelle like oh they really were to have been right in this organization but it's it's really true right like when you when you see some of how those interactions are going on it's quite likely that the coach's impressions of clients specifically would have been much different, right? Had they known what the other team members were actually, you know, what they were getting from her and what she's giving to them. Trish 40:30 She's she's their fill-in. She's their humanizing fill-in. And look, I don't want to say there's anything wrong with that. I mean, I'll I'll tell on myself a little bit. When I was at PwC for many years, you know, I had to be in the role. As you go up further as an HR professional, at least it was when I was there in my office. You know, you have to be pretty hard nosed. You're, yeah, you're bringing in a lot of new hires every year, and you're firing a lot of people every year. That's just a cycle. It's, it's everyone is type A. Everyone has been a high achiever their entire lives, and so to turn around and let those people go is difficult. Those are difficult conversations. But I had a she was an HR manager. I had hired her. She was more junior to me. I hired her as an associate, and she'd worked her way up. She and I can be very compassionate, but in my job there, I I was past that point, right? I was now senior leadership, and people would want to come talk to me, and I'd be like, "Okay, are we crying? Are we not crying? Because if we're crying, we're going to go to Courtney, and if we're not crying, and you want actual like tough love solutions, let's let's really nail it. You're then come on in. But I think that's what it's missing. It's it's fine if Kelly's like that. It's fine if Judy's like that. They've got to have somebody that's softer. Doesn't mean Kelly and Judy can't be soft. They can, but in their role, they have to also get certain things done. They have to meet certain measurable goals, right? In terms of their their team, so yeah, I think you can't expect leaders to do both, especially the higher you go. You're going to have some that are more human relation based, and and truly, like when you think about Workhuman, and we've we've obviously they're a sponsor of the show, but like we've we believe in what they do because we've seen how it works, and it's not just about money. Yes, monetary rewards or points or gifts are wonderful. That is an important element. I'm not going to say it's not. But when you message me after I've done something, or I message you, or we message Karen, and we say you often you're very good at it. You will send me something. She says, "Thank you so much for doing that. I really appreciate it. Or that turned out really well. I really appreciate that. That means more to me than any amount of money could. Honestly, I don't need a monetary reward from you, but yeah, sending me a thumbs up. Like it might sound nothing, and that's what we're missing in this in this workplace, I think. Steve 43:03 Yeah. Trish 43:03 Oh, did you see that? I did the and it went. What did you do? Steve 43:10 Yeah, there there's modes to unpack here, Trish. About we've gone maybe a little over than we wanted to, but that's okay. I mean, it's seven and a half hours of content we're trying to dissect into into 35 minutes, but yeah, I think worth watching. I think my main takeaway is you want Kelly and Judy fired, gone forever. I I think they can still do that. I don't think we're gonna get Kelly on the show either if she listens to this. By the way. Trish 43:40 I don't know. Well, I'll I'll write him a letter. I'm gonna send it to Jerry. Steve 43:44 All right. Well, let's try to get you know. Let's try to get get some engagement with the folks at DCC for this show. So we'll try that. This one's super fun. I have it's on Netflix. Go check it out. Season three, Emmy nominated America Sweethearts Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader Show season three. If you want to let us know what you think, hit us up LinkedIn, YouTube, all the shows on reach are happy hour net HRHappyHour.net of course. And again, we've shouted out our friends at Workhuman a couple times, but thanks, of course, to them for all their support. Trish, good stuff. Welcome back. Good to have you. Trish 44:20 Thank you. I just see. I needed a reason to get fired up, and here I didn't think this was going to be it. But it's good to be back. Steve 44:28 Good stuff. Trish 44:29 We are Team DCC cheerleaders. Let's just say that as a closing comment. Steve 44:35 Absolutely good stuff. All right. We'll see everybody next time. Goodbye for now. Transcribed by https://otter.ai