HR Happy Hour Episode 505 – Navigating the Great Resignation
Sponsored by: Culture Amp
This week, we spoke with Dr. Kenneth Matos about the Great Resignation and how it’s affecting organizations today.
– The multiple experiences of the great resignation, from companies hiring faster than they are losing employees, to companies that are losing employees faster than they can hire them
– The wave of culture and process disruption caused by the great resignation
– Trends that were already in motion prior to the pandemic being amplified
– What thriving organizations are doing to survive this tough time
Thank you Ken, for joining the show today! Remember to subscribe to the HR Happy Hour wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to the HR Happy Hour Show with Steve and Trish; we’ve got a great topic today and a timely one. We’re going to be talking with our friends at Culture Amp all about the great resignation, how it’s affecting organizations and what are some of the things organizations can do to combat it? As we know the labor markets crazy right now. But before we get into that, Trish, I have a question for you. Let me give you a little setup. I find myself sadly becoming like my dad, right. So that’s just happens right as you get older. So here’s my question for you Trish. What, old person thing do you do now? What’s one old person thing you’ll admit to doing?
Oh, my goodness. That’s really difficult. Okay. The first thing that popped to mind is I try to over feed every single human I come into contact with, okay, I’m going to my mother, I’m going to be like, Hey, would you like some of this? Let me give you some of mine. Can I give you some more that? I mean I am so focused on everyone else eating and I was never like that before.
So you’re turning into that grandma who just relentlessly feeds you at your house?
You got it. I’m gonna feed and overfeed everyone.
Mine is very specific. One reason I thought of this question because it’s something that happened to me the other day, I had to drive somewhere, I think to the airport, I think it was from point A to the airport. And I found myself like boring the crap out of someone after that trip with discussing traffic and how I made really good time. You know, and I feel like that’s a very old person thing to do, like young people don’t care about, like, they got off on Route seven instead of route 12. And they get stuck. Like no one talks about that except old people.
I so related to that. Did you ask them about like about the scenery, too? I feel like that’s an old person thing to like, point out the scenery. Like my mom used to always do that in the car and I’d be like, I’m not even looking like what are we talking about?
It’s sad getting old for many reasons. All right, well, good stuff. Trish, let’s get into it. We’ve got a great topic today a super guest waiting to join us. We are very excited to welcome our special guest Kenneth Matos, PhD, that’s cool. Director of People Science at Culture Amp. He leads a global team of psychologists and researchers provide clients with actionable advice on collecting, understanding and acting on employee feedback through evidence based methodologies. Dr. Matos educates and coaches the culture and community and speaks to mainstream media on strategic impact of emerging trends in workplace culture and employee experience. Prior to Culture Amp, he provided technical and strategic leadership on a wide range of workforce research and consulting projects. And his research covers issues of diversity inclusion, employee well being, leadership, and organization culture. Ken, welcome to the show, how are you?
Kenneth Matos 3:02
Good, how are you?
Well, it’s great to have you here. Appreciate you joining us. I don’t want to force you to weigh in on the old person comment because you don’t look like an old person. But you know, it’s fair. If not, that’s okay, too.
Kenneth Matos 3:18
I definitely find that I have to check on whether or not my references are received. So I talk about a movie or thing I’ve seen and I get the blank look, and you never even heard of what I’m talking about.
Kenneth Matos 3:32
Okay, all right. Is this the moment I explain it, or do we just keep moving?
Oh, gosh, love it. Funny. I had that happen yesterday. Ken, I referenced Say Anything? Yeah, I think that’s an old one. Like people are like, huh, I don’t know about that one.
Well, we’ll talk about that on our other podcast, Trish, 90s movies today. So, great to have you here. Maybe before we dive into some of the great resignation conversation, and what organizations can do to try to kind of keep managing through what’s really difficult set of circumstances in the labor market for many, many organizations, maybe just, you know, read the bio, but maybe tell us a little bit more about you what you do at Culture Amp and what your team does, and kind of how that fits overall.
Kenneth Matos 4:19
Sure, yeah, my background is as an organizational psychologist. So I study what happens when you put a bunch of people in a room together and tell them to accomplish something. So what makes them work together, what makes them fight all those different things that companies are always trying to figure out? You have all these brilliant plans about how things should work, and then people actually show up and it becomes something else. So my team works around the world helping our customers think about what is it you need to know about employee experience in order to manage that more effectively to make sure that the the gears are always greased and moving well and really creating instruments to get that information and then helping them interpret that and say, Hey, that 25 and autonomy, it means that their employees are feeling and doing this, if you don’t like that, then you should do these things instead of really trying to help them, not let humans be a big confusing mess. And actually think about how the choices and the way they run their business creates the different dynamics that they’re experiencing.
Ken, thank you, it’s not really what we were sitting down to talk about today. But as you were describing your background and what you guys do at Culture Amp, I couldn’t help but thinking, Boy, imagine that’s like really changed a lot for organizations in the extended work from home model and the, or the extended hype like all this, because the first thing you said was look at when we put a whole bunch of people in a room and tell them to accomplish something. And the first thing I thought of okay, now he’s in rooms, not now, it’s 100 people in their basements, right all around the world and not in one room. But maybe that’s a subject for, you know, a follow up conversation.
Kenneth Matos 6:00
It goes along with my references being out of date.
Well, so a quick bit on that, though. Has that made a big change? Or do people tend to still behave the same way they would on a virtual team as they would in in one room? Does that make a big enough difference to where it’s really changed things? Now,
Kenneth Matos 6:21
Interestingly enough, I spent five years studying remote work long before the great resignation. The key thing is remote work. And distributed teams require you to be a lot more proactive and explicit. And so all that stuff that you do organically; the drop bys, you actually have to schedule them. And so that’s the big thing I’ve taught. The one company I’ve talked to who’s been like, this transition has been a breeze had just done a full review of their communication structure, and how they share information and to like, oh, remote work super easy, because we just really built out a great way to share information with each other. And everyone who sort of stumbled into it is like, Oh, my God, I can’t just go to Bob’s desk and like, get the answer. I think that’s been the biggest change. And when companies solve that, the other stuff starts becoming easier.
Interesting, thank you. In the last five months, this is US labor market data. From our friends at the BLS about 20 million quits over the last five months, anywhere from 3.6 million up to 4.3 million record in August, open jobs in the United States, hovering or near record numbers. In July, there were 11 point 1 million open jobs United States, that’s an all time record went down to about 10 and a half million, the month preceding this date is about a month, month and a half old. Bottom line, right? There’s loads and loads of people voluntarily leaving their jobs. There’s another really big chunk of people who are just kind of out of the labor market right now. And there’s lots and lots of open jobs, right. So this led into this, I’m not sure who coined the term the great resignation. But this term indicates the fact that organizations really of all sizes of all industries and all parts of our country at least again, I’m kind of really focusing on USA market data right now having difficulty hiring and retaining.
So boom, we’re in like a weird kind of organizational labor market, almost a crisis. And we read every day about organizations who no one’s no one wants to work, no one’s applying all this and that. So that’s we’re at. And so many organizations are struggling right now with both hiring and with retention. Ken, with all that setup, right, just resetting kind of the circumstances that many organizations find them in now? You know, what are some what is the data? Or what is the research that you’re doing and the consultations with your your clients suggest to you about some of the some of the causes of this, let’s talk about that. First, before we get into what some of the actions could be, you know, for organizations to combat this?
Kenneth Matos 9:07
Yeah, I think the seeds of the great resignation were planted well before the pandemic. So where we’re seeing the strongest amount of turnover is in jobs that didn’t have very strong value propositions. They weren’t advancing people’s careers. They weren’t setting them up for financial security. They were sort of surviving day to day. So they didn’t have any strong emotional connections to the roles, but they were kind of in a bit of a rut. This is where I am, this is what I’m doing. It’s really hard to break both habit and to financial structures that you create. And so the great resignation is really the moment where the pandemic coordinated. Everybody’s a break from normal. And so suddenly, rather than being a single person here, single person there, it was the entire workforce around the world suddenly, either Were getting laid off having a job that became even more unsustainable than it was before. And so we have a lot of burnout based turnover. This is also the people saying, you know, I just faced death either because I had COVID, someone I knew had COVID, the world is telling me I could die at any moment, that leads to big existential questions that make me really willing to say, I want to do this for the rest of my life. And that I think has led to more people who are in retirement age, actually retiring. So we’ve seen some spikes in those numbers. So the job market has just got the employee market has just gotten smaller to begin with. And then people are being picky, if, if they’re going to go back into a scenario where they’re going to get feel stuck, they want to make sure they’re stuck someplace that’s better than they were before. And right now is the moment where you can say, I lost my job because of COVID. So it’s not going to be as negatively received that you’re looking. And there’s a lot of jobs. So we’re also seeing people take something, play with it for a bit decided they don’t like it and then go to someplace else. And so because it’s all happening at once, it’s really hard for organizations to get ahead of the term.
You know, I’m so glad you described it that way can because I haven’t thought of it in quite that fashion. And I know we’re going to get into, you know, toward the end more of what people can be doing. But one thing that struck me is you talked about how they’re leaving because the job isn’t a high value proposition. I haven’t really heard many HR leaders or other business leaders, frankly, thinking about the roles in terms of them being valuable. Is that something that you’re actually seeing companies do because you’re actually dealing with more clients, right than what Steve and I might be seeing? Or is that the first kind of big mark they’re missing in this entire approach?
Kenneth Matos 12:01
Yeah, for some of them, they’re just missing that mark. Okay, one of the things that happens to humans, when you stress us out, is we try to revert everything back to what we know. So because it makes us feel like we’re more in control, you’ll notice people go to old habits. So a lot of organizations are really focused on how do I maintain my culture? How do I maintain my business strategy? How do I maintain, maintain, maintain, when really, this is a moment of change? And so the real thing you have to do is take a step back and say, Alright, things have been disrupted. Could I do this better? Is the industry changing? I think that’s the other piece where a lot of people are going well, this is how the restaurant industry has always been, or this is how I banking has always been. The world has been changing. We’ve been slowing it down, slowing it down, slowing it down. And the pandemic just said, Look, time’s up. Now moving forward. I think that is the tension that organizational leaders have to resolve to really master what’s going on.
Yeah, it’s interesting, Ken, because again, I’m coming at this, from my limited perspective, right, and what I think about a lot and the one reaction that I’ve seen, at least the most, and it’s it’s only going to have short term effectiveness, I think, is, especially in many of these jobs that you described, right? These kind of low value proposition low emotional, taxing jobs, is compensation. It’s just going up. That’s just the bottom line. Right? So whether it’s Amazon or Costco, or Chipotle or any interview pick, right, you pick that kind of, you know, out shift base hourly kind of job, where often have to hire hundreds, if not 1000s of employees, right, in relatively short times. The compensation that’s the lever, right? Mostly, Trish, to your point, that’s the lever, most HR slash talent functions are pulling right now. Because in some weird way, maybe they won that it’s other than the financial obligation when it’s the easiest, right? It’s just the easiest thing to do. It’s very logical, right? When you say, Well, if I raise wages, I will have a higher likelihood of hiring people and or retaining them. And three, it’s kind of like, it makes logical sense, right? It makes logical sense. You’re going to pay people more they’re going to be quote, unquote, happier. No, that’s not the right word. But I but I guess that’s, I don’t know, that’s just not sustainable. Right? Because Plus, there’s no competitive advantage. And it really, because every other competitor that you have for for talent for labor could do the same thing. You know, it’s subject to their ability to fund it, but I don’t know. So that’s just kind of what I’m seeing.
Kenneth Matos 14:32
That’s such a great thing to focus in on because I feel like money is a very mixed bag right now. So for some jobs, money actually is a better value proposition. So if you cannot pay for the childcare, or the car to get fixed on time, or all the other things that happened to people in lower wage jobs, you getting more money thrown at you is actually really valuable. It really makes for a better life. After a certain point once you can Pay to actually work, which is a sad, interesting reality of life in the US where you have to earn a certain amount to be able to afford to work. Once you get past that point, we do see that money becomes less and less of a motivator, because you get the sort of the initial surge of like, oh, look, I’m making more, and then it all sort of fades into the background of direct deposit. And your day to day experience becomes the thing you start talking about. And so especially as you have more remote work, there’s gonna be less opportunity for conspicuous consumption. So money becomes something that you don’t want to lean into, as you move up in jobs here and want to focus in on what am I actually asking these people to do? Is it developmental for them? Do they have career security? Are they feeling like they have good relationships with colleagues that makes them want to get up and do this becomes more important than just throwing more money at them, that just becomes a more and more abstract thing, or a status symbol, they can’t show off as easily?
You know that I think that you’re 100% Correct. But the disconnect might be that, for years, HR leaders have said compensation is not the only way to make people join our company and make people stay in our company. So there’s a disconnect between maybe even what’s reported on the news. And what CEOs or CFOs might be hearing is, oh, we need to raise our wages. And they come to the HR person and say, Okay, we’ve got to raise the wages that’ll fix it. It’s like, what do you tell those HR leaders, you have to then have that conversation and convince them that? Well, what we really need to focus on is this learning and development and all these opportunities, because you’re right, I’m sitting here thinking like, there’s, there’s a certain point where you’ll do, you know, whatever job if they pay you more, right, but no one back to that, whether your job has a strong value proposition, no one’s going to do a crappy job. That’s just horrible. For any amount of money, right? We people even say that kind of jokingly all the time, like, well, you could never pay me enough to do that job. Right? Well, someone has to do that job. So maybe what’s the message if you’re in that situation where you’re like, you’re the HR leader, you know, this, and you’re trying to convince, you know, your powers that be maybe, or your colleagues to get on board with this, but it’s not just about the money, do you have like a silver bullet for those, those leaders?
Kenneth Matos 17:34
I have a first step to the silver bullet, which is a good data. Actually ask your employees what you want. I love what you’re referencing with, you can’t pay me enough. I see that in comments on our surveys all the time. And I so opens up the door to say they’re not talking money isn’t the thing that they’re really asking for, it’s just the easiest thing to ask for. You read what they’re saying, after you can’t pay me enough. It’s, I want you to respect me, I want this job to give me career opportunities. I want to feel like I have people that I work with, and I’m accomplishing something, all those things are things organizations can do without spending more money, I literally had one leader come in and say they’re just angry because they didn’t get bonuses. Like actually, they’re terrified that you’re going to leave them off. That’s what they’re saying. So all you have to do is go and give them your business plan. And they’re gonna feel a lot more secure and staying with you. But like, you’re so focused on what you control through your spreadsheets, that you’re losing sight of the fact that your employees are more than just the paycheck that you give them. They’re more than the transaction. And so I think that opens the door to say, pay, you have a lot of myths about what’s going on. But nothing anyone is saying matches up with that. The other thing I think HR people need to be really careful of is that the justification for change has to be something that leader cares about. I see so many people giving the argument of the employees are unhappy, or they they’re hurting, and the leaders like that that’s not what I’m paid to manage. So tell me how they’re hurting affects my bottom line. And so really making sure that your message to the stakeholder is couched in the connection to the thing that they are rewarded and penalized for. And then you can carry it from that initial data collection to actual change. If that narrative breaks down. You don’t get much further than the presentation.
Yeah, and that’s a great point, Ken, because that we talk about this all the time we talk about deploying software, deploying new programs or deploying anything any going to change right tune plays lives, there’s, we’re always told to address the what’s in it for me right down to the individual employee level, which I think it’s important, but you’re making a great point that the What’s In It For Me also applies to the CEO/CFO types, right, who often make some decisions around investment in these types of things. Ken, we started to get into some of the some of the ways HR folks and construct really reframing this problem getting beyond things like baseline things like comp and benefits, etc. I’d love for you to maybe share some and you can sort of anonymize this of course, right. Some some of the folks that you work with that are actually doing well, you have done well say through pandemics through the through everybody go work from home, everybody be safe, right and trying to mitigate all this. It’s a year and a half plus into this. Right? We’re all looking it looks like we’re all in our basement still, if you will. So maybe share some if you can share some insights on the organizations that are actually doing okay, and really managing to thrive through these really tough times.
Kenneth Matos 21:31
Yeah, so I think the organizations that are doing really well are being very deliberate. So they’re being clear on what it is that they are letting go of and what they’re maintaining. They’re also much more willing to take a step back from the cultures they’ve maintained and say, we’re getting new people who work new different ways is an opportunity for us to say, Could we do it better? So for example, rather than saying, Alright, I’m going to indoctrinate everybody in our old work process, you’ve all come from our competitors, do you have any insights in how our work process could be a little bit better? One company refers to it as they looking at things with their baby eyes, because they don’t know the organization in and out, they don’t make the assumptions. And so they’ve been able to tell them, hey, this work process that you have, actually I’ve seen it done better. And why don’t we make that switch. So really listening to those new employees coming in for that third person perspective, it’s cheap, cuz it’s literally free consulting. On top of their their basic jobs, I think the other pieces for the ones that are managing the remote work piece really well is they’re embracing the fact that they do need to be more deliberate, more explicit, they’re writing more things down, there’s calling out the change, they’re mourning some of what used to be. So they’re saying to people, like yes, we are sad that what we were can no longer be. But we’re also excited about what we’re going to be. I think a lot of companies have tripped up when they say be excited about the future, and pretend the past never happened. And so just that moment of acknowledgement really sets employees free to move forward. I also think the ones that are doing really well do really good expectation management. So they don’t tell people we’re going to be a thing, that there’s really no reason to expect anyone, so that the size of your book of business might be changing, we’re just going to call that out and let you know, it’s ambiguous right now. Or it’s going, here’s what it’s going to mean, it’s going to be harder or less than it was before. But being ambiguous about stuff usually creates a lot more trouble than it’s worth.
Yeah, it feels like when you’re ambiguous people will fill in the rest of the story, whether they know the facts or not. Right, so then they’ll start making decisions and changes and I would think be much more likely to leave their job. If they’re not, I mean, things might actually be fairly secure. But if they don’t know it, they’re gonna think they’re not in assume the worst and go potentially.
Kenneth Matos 24:15
Yeah, I have one customer who had been making exceptions all over the place for people in order to keep things going keep people engaged. They saw real frustration amongst their their customer base, because they’re constantly making exceptions. So no one knew what was happening. All they wanted was structure. All the employees wanted a structure. And they actually hired somebody who’s that I’m just gonna enforce structure. We’re gonna have six months of frustration, and then we’re gonna start seeing people getting better. And that’s exactly what they’re starting to see is that, oh, there’s structure, there’s predictability. I can get my stuff done more effectively take that energy and put it someplace else. So I think there’s another key piece of this era where everyone feels like all structure has melted down, focusing on rebuilding that is going to be really, really key. Otherwise, everyone’s going to be running around. I sometimes talk about this as the great transformation that is coming after the great resignation. Because a lot of organizations are losing their historical knowledge. They’re losing the people who know the politics, what keeps the gears greased? And it’s got to rediscover all of that. And so being very deliberate about how do we get things done is going to be really key to being successful.
Yeah, you’ve seen a lot of that, from our perspective or mind for sure, you could doing a lot of stuff around HR technology, we’ve seen a lot of development in the cross the industry in workflows and emphasis on helping people navigate the steps of a journey in a structured fashion as the as you said, Ken, so the tech now I think a lot of the technology is reflecting that need for more organization, more structure, and more. You know, I don’t know, like, I know what to expect when something happens kind of thing. And it’s not just who knows what’s going to happen next. And that’s scary, right? Especially in the in the workplace, I guess can last things I wanted to just get your take on is, you know, in this in the light of the great resignation, one of the the scenes that’s been teased out a lot is just power dynamics shifting, right, which traditionally have almost, unless you’re like, like an NBA basketball player or something, you know, unless you’re LeBron James, or that kind of like, you know, quit, you know, except, you know, unusual talent in certain industries. For the most part, right, the power dynamics in the employee employer relationship have always been on the employer side, they just always have, right, and they’ve gotten more and more towards that side, in least in the US over the last 40-50 years, primarily due to the really, really sharp decline in union membership, but across across the labor force. But so without diving into sort of union stuff, I don’t really talk about that. It’s really more about just the mindset. Do you sense can when you talk in organizations around these talent issues and retention issues and engagement issues? Are they are they buying into the fact that hey, we don’t hold all the power now. And the talent, the people who have skills that we need really have a lot more? I guess, power? I guess the only way I can express it in this relationship?
Kenneth Matos 27:18
Yes, and no. So I think one of the things that’s always funny about organizations is they’re made up of people who disagree. And so there’s always there’s definitely a real trend and a number of organizations and leaders saying, we just need to be different. And there’s others who were like, We can wait this out. And so I think that there is there’s a definite movement to recognize workplace flexibility and other things that, especially when they have hidden benefits, so a lot of flexibility investments come with reductions in real estate costs. Yeah. And so those are really taking off. I think the things that are less clear, are harder. I know when COVID began, I was telling people, you really need to do education and accessibility to vaccinations, just off the bat, you don’t need a survey, just do it. Very few people did it, and then moved and had to do surveys to rediscover it. And so I think there’s, there’s still a very strong sense of, we’re going to get back to what we were, that isn’t isn’t right now fighting with, we’re going to change. And so the longer this goes on, the more people flip, and we’re gonna see more organizations saying this is a new normal, and we’re just didn’t make the change. Things like, when does your real estate lease expire? I think is one of those key trigger moments where it’s like, Ah, now we can just let go of the building. Okay, I’m willing to make the change. Yeah. So I think we’re gonna see more people switch, the longer the dynamics stay in play.
Yeah, I think that’s definitely true. And, I mean, we’re all hoping we’re going to get closer back to normal from a books of work and life perspective. I guess we’re getting there Trish, I don’t know.
Kenneth Matos 29:11
Not everyone liked the normal though. That’s the thing that I think is underlying everything is lots of people didn’t actually like normal. And so that’s why they’re not going back to their jobs. That’s why we’re having this delayed return to these really tightly managed, financially chokes work systems that underlie shipping and services industries. And even some of the white collar work Where’s like churning out code from like, 12, midnight to 12 in the morning. So I think there’s I think that has to be reckoned with, or this is going to drag out a lot longer than anyone wants.
I feel like you’ve just, I don’t know, at least for me opened my eyes on some of these reasonings I just never considered. So I think you’re right, I think that they’re probably the people that have not gone back. They’re feeling better about it. But then the other people, like you mentioned earlier, you kind of go back to what you know, even if you didn’t like it, right. A lot of people that have gone back, are just doing it out of, I guess, a feeling of comfort or safety because they know it. And that makes them less anxious, but it’s still not better. So it feels like big work on both sides, right? If you’ve left your job, big work on finding someplace that’s going to be valuable, where you feel valued, who you know, you’re doing work that you find interesting. And that pays you enough write all the things. But then those workers that have gone back are like, we’re just back doing this, because we know this, but we’re still not happy about it.
Kenneth Matos 30:50
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of frustration and resentment on both sides, where some people are saying, come back, restore normal, everything’s fine. And others are saying no, join me in pushing back and making the normal better than it was before. And know people who are more risk averse are going to be on one side and people who are less are going to be on the other. And that is that’s a big argument within American culture writ large, but especially within workplaces.
Yeah, it’s really so it’s been just a remarkable couple of years. I’ll just I’m going to close a little bit with just two quick little just observations I had based on some of the things Ken said one was like the fact you talked about how, hey, it wasn’t so great before all this right was actually kind of crappy. Trish. I was I was following the I follow the workplace news out of China, right? Because, you know, just because we’ve been there a few times. And you’ve heard of the 9-9-6. Right, that 9-9-6 labor schedule in the tech company. So you work from 9am to 9pm, six days a week, right? That’s like, they just the coders, right? That can you said, were you writing that? So they’re grinding these people out? It’s awful. And one of the really big Chinese tech companies, I can’t remember if it was 10 cent or Alibaba, but one of them? Oh, no, it’s bytedance. It’s it’s Bytedance. The folks behind TikTok, they basically said, Hey, we’re publicly we’ll see behind closed doors, who knows what they do, but they’re publicly saying we’re out on 9-9-6. We want you to work from 10am till 7pm, five days a week, that’s your schedule and don’t work beyond that schedule and don’t work on the weekend, at least publicly. They’re saying that so to me, that’s like a glaring example, right? If the kind of, of change can you’re talking about, like, hey, it wasn’t so great before, right. And let’s figure out a way to make it better.
Absolutely. Great stuff. All right. I think Trish, Ken, we’ll wrap here. Ken, folks can connect with you and the work you guys at Culture Amp do, how?
Kenneth Matos 32:43
You can find me, Dr. Ken Matos on LinkedIn. Also, you can reach out to Culture Amp at our website at cultureamp.com
Awesome, great stuff, Ken we’ll put that in the show notes as well as a way to find you. We really appreciate you taking the time today.
Kenneth Matos 32:58
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
So, for our guest, Ken Matos, for Trish McFarlane, my name is Steve Boese. Thanks so much for listening to the HR Happy Hour Show. Find all the show archives at HR Happy Hour dot net. Thanks, and we will see you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai