HR’s Role in the Reinvention of Work

Hosted by

Mervyn Dinnen

Analyst, Author, Commentator & Influencer

About this episode

HR’s Role in the Reinvention of Work

Host: Mervyn Dinnen

Guest: Dr. Kelly Monahan, Managing Director of the Upwork Research Institute

In this episode Mervyn talks to Kelly Monahan, Managing Director of the Upwork Research Institute, about their latest research on the reinvention of work and the roles that Generative AI, taskification and job disruption will play in reshaping the future talent market.

Amongst the research findings they discuss:

  • Exponential growth in the number of tasks and skills
  • The multiflexing workforce
  • Why Generative AI is a ‘grey rhino’ and not a ‘black swan’ event
  • Creation of ‘high value’ work
  • Negating the potential for insecurity and instability in future talent markets
  • Practical considerations for HR teams



Thanks for listening! Remember to subscribe to all of the HR Happy Hour Media Network shows on your favorite podcast app!

Transcript follows:

Mervyn Dinnen 0:18
Hello and welcome to the HR Means Business podcast, which is part of the HR Happy Hour Network. I am your host, Mervyn Dinnen. And today we’re going to be talking about the future of jobs, the future of work, disrupting jobs even. It’s a pleasure to be able to introduce to you, Dr. Kelly Monahan, who is director of the Research Institute at Upwork. Kelly, would you like to introduce yourself?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 0:43
Yeah, thank you so much for being having me on your podcast today. I love this podcast. I love talking to HR. So, you mentioned I’m Kelly Monahan and I lead HR at Upwork Research Institute. And what that means is our mission is to change work one insight of the time, I have been studying the future of work, which seems it was funny to say now for over a decade, and have spent a lot of time at Deloitte, Accenture and Mehta really in different contexts understanding, exactly, you just said, how our jobs is being disrupted, what sorts of skills to workers need, and really the heart of my research, I want to understand how does human behavior change as a result of the technologies in organization designs that we tend to experiment with. So pleasure to be here and excited to talk through some of our research.

Mervyn Dinnen 1:24
So um, I know last summer, I joined up with 20, or 21, other kind of analysts, researchers, authors from the world of work for a simulation that was organized for you, where we spent two or three weeks, I suppose coming together to try and look at the future of work, the future of jobs, and how things might be shifting over the next few years. So I suppose the first thing to say is, why did you do that? And what I suppose are your top line findings?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 1:59
Above that, and first of all, thank you so much for participating, and anyone else who’s listening, we had a wonderful group of experts. The reason why we did this is as we think about the future of work in that topic, I think it’s really important to do much more sense making it almost is more qualitative questions that we’re asking today around how is generative AI disrupting work? You know, I’m gonna Upwork. So we think a lot about the Freelancer market. So how is that changing? And how’s that going to involve? Think is really easy as researchers, you know, to have your own internal thoughts and even biases. And so we wanted to do is really look outside and take an outside in approach to understand what are the world’s experts thinking about this? What are they seeing. And I truly believe that knowledge is created through dialogue, and information sharing and knowledge sharing. And you know, at the end of the week, each rep project and simulation, we had over 100 pages of just text, that really allowed us to do deeper research and understanding and really just make sense of the world around us and all the shifts that are taking place.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 2:56
So a couple of things illuminated, you know, from a top level finding that we made sense of as a group. The very first was that the speed of business and decision making, it’s not a fiction, it’s a fact that it’s moving faster than it has before, the ability for especially HR to have various data inputs, being able to see things in real time is really important for the workforce today. And so I do think the velocity, and speed of business is rapidly changing, probably faster than we as individuals can even think and keep up with, which is why I think we feel some of this friction, second top line finding was around Gen Z. And really the shift that they’re going to have come into the workplace as we do anytime a new generation comes, there’s nothing unique about this. And I’m excited for this, I think they’re going to challenge the assumptions of what is the purpose of business, what does work mean for the identity and where they take the workplace. And in a couple years, we’re going to have more millennials and Gen Z workers than any other generation. And so I do think we’re seeing this value shift take place as we do anytime a new generation comes into the workforce. And then the third thing that I think was really important, of course, we haven’t talked about it today is the disruption of generative AI. But it’s more than just the technology itself, I think, with a group of experts illuminated for me, it was generative AI and the machine really machine learning as well. And the ability to accelerate other technology development. So whether that’s Internet of Things, sensors, 5g, wireless, and really that intersection of technologies coming together is the real transformation is going to take place, which is why we think jobs need to be disrupted the way we think about the flow of work. It’s generative AI, but it’s so much more than that. It’s accelerating and feeling the development about their technology. So those are the three things that I was probably most excited about from our time together.

Mervyn Dinnen 4:43
And I recall kind of inputting to all of them. What I mean, did anything surprise you? Well, we’ll dig a bit deeper into those trends in a moment. But was there anything that the esteemed group that may be working we’re kind of extrapolating for the future that It became a bit of a surprise?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 5:03
Yeah, there was two things. Probably should have seen these in hindsight. But sometimes it takes a group to eliminate. One, I think the surprise finding was that this, these advancements are not going to all take place equally across the globe. And I think that concerns me as just the future of work researcher and someone who hopefully takes more of a global view than just, you know, us or even western country perspective. And so I am concerned that I was surprised by the number of dialogues and conversation, we were having to try to figure out how do we bring technology, you know, countries and economies that don’t have access to these technology and tools, I worry will be left behind. And so I think, really solving for that. And that’s a much bigger, you know, issue to solve for that’s going to take governments and society as a whole. But that was really illuminating to me, because I do think sometimes, especially working in tech for a while, you tend to get into a bit of a tech bubble and forget what’s happening more broadly across the globe.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 6:01
The second surprise finding for me, was so much I you know, I again, I studied more organizational systems, thinking and development. So my unit of analysis is always like, Well, how do we fix this system? How do we think about org design or leadership? I think what was a surprise finding for me coming out of this is that we the unit of analysis needs to be the job itself, how we’re actually structuring, organizing work needs to change before we can even begin to disrupt that larger system. And I think so many of us are trying to figure out the magic lever of what’s the new org design, what’s the new leadership behaviors, when in reality, if we’re every individuals working alongside an outdated structure and unit of analysis, the whole thing is going to work. So that was really a surprise finding for me as well.

Mervyn Dinnen 6:44
Looking at this through maybe a human resources lens, job disruption is one of those expressions that gets talked about a lot, sometimes without much definition. Because it sounds very exciting. And it sounds that if you say, well, the future of work is job disruption. It makes it sound like you’re a real thought leader. But what trying to break that down a little bit. As you said, we had 21 or so people from all different fields and all different backgrounds, trying to speculate on this and work it through. What would you say are the key elements of job disruption that you’re expecting to see over the next two to three years?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 7:21
So I think there was two main themes that the crowd of expert brought to us through the scenario that was really helpful in helping us at Upwork. Understand what does job disruption actually mean? The first is the process of what the term is tasked with vacation. And so what’s happened and we’ve got other research to support this that shown has from Gartner, actually, that the number of skills and tasks we’re now putting in today’s job descriptions have exponentially grown. And so what you have as a result of that is a lot of unicorn jobs out there in the HR world, where we’re trying to find talent that, quite frankly, doesn’t actually exist for one job. And that’s because I think we all know, work has gotten more complex. So a way to simplify what’s happening. And what actually needs to happen within an organization is through task application. Instead of saying, Okay, here’s the job description, here’s the 20 new things that we now require. We all know, as HR professionals, the minute that person walks into your organization’s doors, the job is probably obsolete, anyways, the task of change, the business problem is changed. And so the ability to actually start breaking down tasks in skills, and really deconstruct the work itself, I think is fundamental today. Now I say that was a big caution, because I want to make sure we don’t go back to the industrial air and start heading assembly line of work happened within our organization. So I think that’s just my one call out in risk.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 7:21
And I think as HR leaders we have to solve for still. But we have to understand what is the business problem? What are the tasks, what are the skills that are required? Once we’re able to do that this is a new term that was brought to us by some of the experts that participated was his concept of multiplexing, which I used to work at BestBuy. So it’s very familiar from this from a cable perspective of how you’re able to take one input and split that connection or signal into multiple forms. And I think it’s a good analogy for us to think about with a workforce today and really job deconstruction, instead of me just sitting within, you know, an org chart, one box within one department in one function, how do you multiply my impact and my skill sets throughout the organization and it really, again, duplicate and multiplies the my skills and strengths and my expertise, right can come in and out as appropriate. And I think as HR leaders, we know this, we talked about this, we want our leaders are asking for an agile organization. They want more fluid workforces and structures, but how we facilitate that is going to take job justification and that I think the ability to multiplex the workforce to actually make that come true.

Mervyn Dinnen 9:53
When we talk about kind of fluid workforces, it could almost be interpreted or listened to deputed as almost kind of something insecure. So it’s fluid. It’s not. And I think one or two of the, certainly on the simulation, one or two of the scenarios, had quite an insecure undertone to them, with people maybe moving from task to task to task, but without anything, without really a safety net, or anything kind of a greater whole around it. I mean, do you see this the case? Or is it do you think this is something which gradually as we move there will become much more solid and stable?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 10:37
Yeah, I think that’s a fantastic question. I appreciate you bringing that up. So you know, from my perspective, I am optimistic our organizational structures, or social safety nets are provided will eventually evolve to match the org design and the way that work is going. I mean, the way that I’ve done some history, history, you know, research before is the social contract between a worker and the organization. And, you know, there’s a debate and where you can start to pinpoint some of that demise. But after, you know, right around the 80s, and into the 90s, we started to see much more, you know, as HR people call it, you know, job hopping occur within individuals, think millennials got a little bit wrongfully slotted into that stereotype, it just happened to be occurring at the same time they were coming into the workforce, and that job stability was quite frankly, being disrupted. And it’s because again, that velocity of business is changing so fast. So the one thing I would say that’s a positive for the workforce that I would actually encourage them to embrace a variety of projects and contexts is we know, skilling is going to be required. I do believe generative AI in particular, is going to be creating a skills, bias, technology change, meaning our halflife of skills, and our ability to keep up is going to continue to be under pressure. And that’s just the reality of the world we’re working in. And as an individual, how do I make sure that I take that individual responsibility, and making sure that I’m continuing to engage in upskilling, myself, we know as human beings the way we develop learning by doing and so that’s why I’m like excited about the fluid workforce in some ways, and the ability to engage in multiple projects, it really works with the way that humans are wired to learn. Now, on the flip side, humans in order to learn need stability, and they need to make sure from a cognitive perspective, that they’re not having scarcity because of thinking, how am I going to get my next paycheck? Where’s my next work coming from? And all that anxiety that might occur? And so I do think that is the big challenge for us is to reconcile these two things, I think they can coexist. And I think we need more innovated thinking policies and org design to make the fluidity and learning occur, but also the stability to make sure that those can coexist within a workforce today.

Mervyn Dinnen 12:41
And I recall, one of the simulations was going off a little bit, and I think I got a bit involved in this one, looking at kind of rootless, stateless as kind of this this kind of like, generation of workers who didn’t feel any kind of tie to any location to any industry, any sector, any, any wider group of people or organizations. Is that which, which sounds like I’m recreating some hippie ideal from the mid 60s. But it is, I mean, is that something you think could happen? Or I think, with technology and the way we are at the moment, particularly with a bit of instability, insecurity in the world and stuff? Do you think that’s something that probably won’t quite happen like that?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 13:23
It’s a great point. And the one thing that I think is going to end up happening, I’d be curious about your thoughts on this, too, is I think, as human beings we’re wired to have identity, you know, that either comes from family, friends, religious organizations, workplace, we’re constantly trying to we understand ourselves through the lens of others is the reality of this. And so I think what we’re going to see happening, we’re already thing happening as an example on our platform is, the more that the world becomes digitized. And the more that these communities actually formed in a digital environment, I think people are going to create their own communities, and communities and hubs of like minded individuals. I mean, I think Wikipedia is just like a good example of this, I’ve just really got a lot of structure and people just co creating and joining into providing new information and thought, we see like at our Upwork platform, we’ve got community of freelancers who just joined together for that community knowledge sharing, if they are into 3d content creation, with example, or they’re trying to land jobs in generative AI today.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 14:26
I do think as humans, we’re wired for that belonging and connection, and we’re gonna go find that community. I don’t necessarily know if we need an organization anymore, to form that identity. For us. I actually think the power is more in our hands, which I think is kind of exciting because I think so many people have checked their identity at the door, have, you know, this whole notion of FinTech, self and all of that, because they don’t fit within the culture of an organization. So they’ve had to force fit that now I think they’re going to be able to go find the community where they fit and they can be themselves and hopefully flourish. And so that’s like the optimistic version. I see. This for farming and because of digital technologies and platforms, I think we have the ability to create these communities in ways we’ve never had before.

Mervyn Dinnen 15:06
It sounds interesting and exciting. As is generative AI, which is I’d be failing in my duties as a podcast host if I didn’t ask you a question around generative AI, but we did. It came up a few times, obviously, in simulation. I know you’ve also had other research published recently, which looks at the impact of AI. So what’s that? How would you, I suppose describe in terms of that works for you of what the impact of AI will be certainly over, I suppose the short term is the next six to 12 months, and then longer term, how you see it developing?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 15:45
Yeah, that’s a great question. So we did just release research. So one of the unique thing about Upwork is we have our own close labor market. So we can see supply and demand dynamics, at least from a premium user perspective. And then we have satisfaction scores and performance ratings, we can actually see the value of work because of monies being exchanged in our platform. So because of that we have experienced in theme firsthand three specific findings that I think are really important for both HR leaders and quite frankly, the workforce to be aware of. The first is as we consider high value work. And we think of those, those are the big meaty contracts that freelancers get their complex work, from a US Dollars perspective, there are over $1,000, and they just tend to be highly complex. Across all can we have 12 categories of work in our platform across all 12 categories, high value work is up, in so I think that’s something like that, there’s just noting, from a demand perspective, that clients are beginning to move up the value chain as a direct result of generative AI.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 16:46
The second thing that’s important to know is that freelancers who are working on those high complex projects, who are working alongside generative AI and machine learning, what we’re seeing is wage premium, they’re earning more money than they ever have before. And so for me, as a researcher, that’s thrilling to me, we are getting ready to enter into a skills bias technology change, where workers can become more complex, and then required skills are going to be higher. And those who benefit from this are going to be those that are highly skilled to work out in this new way. And the third thing I would say that we’re seeing in this is still really early on. But we are beginning to also see a spillover effects take place. So work that isn’t quite that big is benefiting from Gen AI and the peripheral but not directly, it’s still requiring human hand to facilitate in particular that 3d content creation is one of the case studies group developed, we’re seeing a lot of human work being generated in that category, because of its ability to be augmented with AI.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 17:42
So I’m excited like overall very excited about the impact nai is going to have my my call though, after looking at all this data and research is we have to engage in upskilling, we have to move people up the value chain of work, because I am going to tell you, what we’re seeing early on is much more of that substitute effects that replaced an effect that’s happening on really routine low value work, where it’s really repetitive, you know, and it probably isn’t suited best for human anyways. But yet people are doing it and they need a job. And so we have to figure out how do we move that worker and that workforce into different categories of work that we know are growing in emerging. And so I think it’s a very exciting time. I think it’s very exciting for those who have the skill sets today. And it’s a little bit word of caution. For those who don’t that you’ve got to start finding a way to work alongside this technology. Because it’s here and it’s coming, I think it is going to continue to disrupt the way we think about work.

Mervyn Dinnen 18:36
Now, one of the things, having read one of your recent pieces that I want to talk to you about is it’s about grey rhinos and black swans. So AI is a gray Rhino. So maybe you could kind of expand on that.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 18:53
Yes, so this was I was looking for the simulation when we were developing the various scenarios. You know, there was this question mark of what impact is generative AI really a black swan event that we didn’t see coming, and it’s going to continue to create black swan events in the future versus gray Rhino effect, which is simply you know, you think about the size of agree why Rhino, it’s there, you see it, but there’s something they for whatever reason, there’s inertia, we don’t react to it in its presence. And so I really do think is I think about generative AI in particular. And I think the experts can this conclusion to is it was really much more of a gray Rhino AI has been under development since the 1950s. It’s gone through multiple periods of winters and just unable to really take hold in the way that people thought and so there’s been like a lot of you know, ups and downs as we think about this. And so for chat up to November 2020 You know, to really take hold and see like to surprise people. We really felt this was much more of a gray Rhino effect. We should have seen coming and so the question becomes why you didn’t wait and why didn’t mean more importantly, take action on this sooner. And so I think that one of the things that, you know, we unpacked a bit and a pizza wrote for Fortune, which was why was his hiding and kind of plain sight? And why didn’t leaders X? And I think the reason is I mean, there’s obviously a lot of reasons. One, of course, is a pandemic, was certainly, I think, especially for HR professionals, I mean, the emotional burden labor of taking care of a workforce physically, I think can’t be understated, but overstated. But then the second thing is, I think, because AI is coming in, as I called it a herd of rhinos, it’s coming alongside those other technology advancements is coming alongside a higher velocity and pace of business, it’s coming alongside Gen Z and new values and expectations of work. By just looking at the technology itself, you’re gonna miss all those intersection points, where this is really intersecting with your workforce in profound ways. And that’s what I encourage that you’re so focused on is focus on the intersection, don’t isolate AI, is a technology alone, who figure out how is it working alongside it intersecting with those other factors?

Mervyn Dinnen 20:57
So what would your advice be for HR leaders, HR managers who are listening to this chat? What can they be doing? Or start or start to do now? And what can they be? I suppose, as they plan for over the next couple of years, what should they be looking to achieve?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 21:14
Yeah, you know, I think you know, something that we’ve talked about today, I really encourage HR leaders to think through what is the business problems are solving for within the organization? And what is the best way to complete the work, it is highly unlikely the existing structure, the way you’ve set up JavaScript descriptions and functions and the flow of work is probably outdated and not going to move fast enough for your workforce and your business to keep up. And so I encourage the HR leaders, particularly to think about how is the flow of work happening with your organization? Where are those friction points, whether that’s coming from not having enough resources, having too many resources, not actually being having those muscles within organization of work cross functionally and in more fluid ways. And so I think this is really deep thinking for HR leaders in particular. And I think the problem is that I used to work in HR, there’s so many fire drills take place every day you walk into the workplace, whether that’s a crisis at the leadership level, whether that’s the workforce, regardless of what it is you are constantly faced with fire drills. But I really encourage the deep thinking that needs to take place has got to be prioritized. Even that requires more staffing on HR side to start solving for this. If your workforce today, the message is really clear, we have to start engaging and upskilling. And I think the thing is, again, I’m empathetic, we’re coming out of pandemic, people are so burned out, they’re emotionally tired, there’s been a lot of change. And now we’re telling them probably one of the biggest change they have to deal with is happening right now. But people who are able to get ahead of this are so much free learning, whether it’s through Coursera, LinkedIn, Udemy, go and take those courses. And again, just like so the HR leaders, it requires time and capacity, prioritize this, like we have to prioritize learning and the flow of work right now. Because if not, I am worried people will get left behind as people do anytime they technology disruption occurs.

Mervyn Dinnen 23:08
One of the topics that seems to be discussed quite a bit at the moment is, I suppose the expansion of the workforce, and certainly US, certainly UK and Western Europe. There’s been a lot recently about how the people are not retiring. So you’ve got a workforce where you’ve got more and more people obviously coming in at kind of 16,18, 21. But you’ve got people who maybe hit a traditional retirement age, but are continuing to work in some capacity and want to keep working in that capacity is how do you see that playing out? I suppose longer term, it’s the kind of things we’re discussing now and how things are changing. And certainly, with technological advancement, the way certain tasks are now being done almost redrawn, reorganized, or taken out completely. Do you think there is a balance that can be struck? Or do you think there could be some almost tension in the workforce in years to come?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 24:05
Yeah, I think it’s a fascinating question. And I can just tell you, based on some of the data that we’ve collected recently, you know, we actually see, you know, baby boomers being one of our fastest growing cohorts that are engaged in freelancing today. And so the way I see this playing out is the generation before you know, who’s still working or delaying the retirement is essentially they have so many enduring human characteristics and skill sets that desperately need to be passed on to the next generation. Whether that specific industry knowledge, content, knowledge, customer knowledge, I mean amount of real knowledge that takes place that can’t be replaced by machines can’t be replaced by sophisticated algorithm needs to be transferred. And I think what’s exciting to me is where I see this playing out, is I think, as baby boomers in particular acquire wealth and are able to exit and not necessarily have that full time employment model that just makes sense for them anymore. I do think we’re going to see The new entry into the freelance market where they’re going to be able to come on. And you know, we see this in the evidence of fractional C suite hiring fractional leadership hiring where they can be able to come in and lend their expertise and time, but six months, nine months in particular organization, and really help them from I think, again, those leadership skill set.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 25:18
So it’s industry specific knowledge that they have, and utilize it in that way. And so that’s where I see this playing out. I do think just because of lifestyle changes and where they may be, they may not want to have that same demands of the of the corporate life that’s placed on them, especially the higher level roles. But I’ve seen them wanting to give a contribution to obviously still generate wealth for their next generations as well. And again, that’s where I think this Freelancer markets gonna get really interesting. So many people think of Gen Z when it comes with freelancers, which is certainly the case. But I think I’m really excited to see an older generation take part in this and really offer so much wisdom and expertise that, quite frankly, is desperately needed today.

Mervyn Dinnen 25:59
Okay, we’re coming towards the end of the conversation. Kelly. So I suppose if I asked you, summarizing everything we’ve been talking about and and looking a little bit ahead as that is your role. How do you see the next I suppose three to five years playing out genuinely in in the world of work, but also, are there any specific things that we should be looking for that your research is flagging up that may be coming? I suppose the the not so much the black swans, but any other grey rhinos there that we might not be actually looking out for at the moment?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 26:34
Yeah, I think it’s a great question. So there’s a couple of things that are, you know, as we summarize what we’ve talked about, and then I think where the future of work is going, is there’s three things that I’m constantly looking at right now to figure out what I believe it’s going to mark a future organization. Their first is their use of generative AI, but in particular, do they have a strategy? Do they have a skills training program? Do they actually have that foundation, they’re looking to capitalize on this technology, as opposed to over during this experiment are we you know, given our workforce, access to a large language model, I’m really looking to see that business transformation take place. And that comes through deep strategy work and training. So that’s the market number one I’m looking for.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 27:13
Number two is distributed work and the level of flexibility. What I’m very curious about to start witnessing is we continue to be in this like, really big debate about return to Office, and the level of flexibility, different organizations are giving their workforce. And so I’m going to my hypothesis is that high performing talent is more likely as especially as they move up in their life to want more flexibility, not less. And so I do think there’s going to be a lot of shift in talent, moving towards flexible organizations and organizations that allow them to either be digital nomads, or not tethered to a particular location. And so I think what degree of flexibility organizations are willing to give is still a kind of a burning platform question and talent, I think might have a little bit more power in that, say. And then the third thing is, as we talked about, is going to start to see the Freelancer market evolve? How do we see, as we talked about, before this social contract shift, we start to see more maturity, to provide the stability, that freelancers need to take these risks to be able to become more fluid and come in and out. And to what we talked about, where does our identity go? It’s no longer with an organization? How do we help communities form and really facilitate and foster community apart from one organization? So those are the three things that I think help summarize your conversation, kind of the markers of what I’m looking for into the future? I think companies that begin the work of job disruption and really start thinking through how can we organize work differently, it’s going to be painful at first, because no one likes change, it’s going to be disruptive. And it’s certainly hard to work differently, especially when so much of this has been ingrained in us. But I do think that companies are beginning to do that today, are gonna leapfrog and reap exponential benefits in the next three to five years because they’re gonna be able to work faster, and more agile. And at the end of the day, I think that’s what’s going to win in the market.

Mervyn Dinnen 29:06
Kelly, it’s been a fascinating conversation. I hope listeners have enjoyed it. I suppose two things. Firstly, how can people get ahold of you? Where can they find you and connect with you? And also we’ve referred to two pieces of research. Could you possibly say how people can access that research?

Dr. Kelly Monahan 29:24
I’m on LinkedIn. So you definitely I always encourage people to connect with me on LinkedIn, Kelly Monahan, and then second, all of our research is, where we’ve got all the research we talked about today, the impact of generative AI, the great rhinos, and just quite frankly, the job disruption that we think is going to take place. So I also encourage the audience to go to backslash research, to really just peruse and hopefully find some funds reading on there and certainly welcome reach out. We’ve got our email inbox, as well and you’re more than happy to send us an email and give us feedback on what you’re learning about.

Mervyn Dinnen 30:00
Kelly, thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure.

Dr. Kelly Monahan 30:02
Thank you so much.

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