Episode 516 – Meeting the Wellbeing Needs of Your Employees
Hosts: Steve Boese, Trish McFarlane
Guest: Polly Nicholas, Senior Vice President, Unum Solutions
This episode of the HR Happy Hour is brought to you by Paychex, one of the leading providers of HR, payroll, retirement, and software solutions for businesses of all sizes.
Financial capital has long been established as a key driver of business performance, but today, business leaders are increasingly recognizing the importance of their human capital in driving success. Download Paychex’s latest guide to discover why breaking down the silos between HR and finance can result in better business strategy and growth, as well as 14 simple HR metrics your teams should be tracking, and why.
To download the e-book, visit payx.me/FDMresearch.
This week, we met with Polly Nicholas from Unum to discuss the leave and wellness revolution and how caring for your employees has taken on a whole new power.
– How employers can show up for their employees
– Importance of making care-related benefits a priority
– Today’s ‘leave gap’ and how employers are expected to fill that need
– Why being human-centric is critically important to the leave journey and how tech plays a role
To learn more about Unum, visit them here: Unum on LinkedIn or UnumNews on Twitter
Thank you, Polly, for joining the show today! Remember to subscribe to the HR Happy Hour wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to the HR Happy Hour Show with Steve and Trish sponsored by our friends at Paychex. Today Trish, we’re gonna be talking about wellness, caring for employees and ways that we can support our employees and how some tools and resources organizations can use in that in those efforts to support and care for employees. Because, you know, as we’re all talking in the pre-show, we were talking about year three of this pandemic. I don’t want to speak out of school Trish, but you’re getting over your second bout of COVID after doing everything right and getting vaccinated and trying to stay out of trouble. But boom, like, Here you go. And I’m glad you’re feeling better. Trish, I’m glad you’re with us today.
Thank you. Yes, I I think that you just have to still continue to do all of the things we’re being told. And hopefully that makes it a little bit less intense. But for all of the predictions out there saying it’s a milder strain. I don’t know that I would agree with that. I guess the good news is if you’re not hospitalized, you’re out of the game. Right, but let me just tell people if you think the word mild means mild, it does not necessarily. So be safe.
Well, good. Glad you’re with us. Glad you’re feeling better. Trish quick, before we introduce our guest, Polly Nicholas from Unum is going to join us in a minute. Here is the question of the day. I hope this was not too difficult for your sort of COVID recovered brain. It might be a little more tricky, but I’m gonna try it anyway because I like the question. Here it is, what quote or saying do people say all the time, but you think is total BS? I can give you my answer if you want to hear it.
No, you know what? It’s funny, because whenever you ask me these questions, I just go with whatever pops into my brain in the moment, and maybe it is a little COVID hazy at the moment. I guess the quote that people say a lot is ‘it is what it is’.
Yeah, I’ve heard that. And it doesn’t make any sense, really. ,
I think to me, it’s a defeatist kind of an attitude. So when people are just, you know, like, well, I got COVID, it is what it is, right? No, you know what, I think that again, you can control so much of your destiny in this life. And I think sometimes when we’re overwhelmed, or we’re just feeling like we can’t do it, then we say something like it is what it is, but I would say that’s just not.
I’ve got a more practical one. Okay, here it is. And I cheated a little bit, but I don’t care. I think I agree with this. And the thing is ‘love means never having to say you’re sorry’. You better say sorry here and there.
Do you know the movie that comes from is Love Story? 1970 Oscar winning movie. I was born in 1970. So I grew up actually I love that movie symmetry there. Yeah. All right. Love, love, love that movie. And I actually read the book and for the longest time I believed that was true. And you’re right that is not true. I think being able to say you’re sorry for something is certainly worth doing if I can tell you’re sincere.
Trish, let’s get on with the show. I’m super excited. We have done some work with our friends at UNUM towards the tail end of 2021. And I’m really excited to have today our special guest Polly Nicholas. She’s the Senior Vice President of Solutions at Unum. Polly has more than 20 years of experience driving growth and operational improvement and a passion for connecting people purpose and results. She leads units rapidly expanding solutions businesses, attracting new clients and expanding the support provided through a suite of cloud based solutions, including total leave behavioral health and HR connect solutions. Polly, welcome to the HR Happy Hour Show. How are you today?
Polly Nicholas 4:19
I’m wonderful. It’s great to be here with you both.
That’s awesome. Feel free to weigh in on the question of the day Polly, you had a couple of minutes to think about it if not we can we can dive right into what’s happening at Unum.
Polly Nicholas 4:32
You know, I think about the quote of ‘doing art is fun’. And one of the things that I think we all know right now actually teaches introduction is doing art can also be hard but you know, I think it’s part of life but I don’t love that one to your point. Inspirational.
I think too. If you’re like me, I mean I’m on Instagram and Facebook and I do the same thing. Sometimes you see a really inspirational quote and you post it, and somebody else is like, that’s crap. That’s not good.
I didn’t want to go this route. But I almost went into the, the one I hate and I’ve hated it for a decade plus is ‘the culture eats strategy for breakfast’? I bet that’ll be like a whole nother show. We can do a whole show on that.
You’ve done a whole session on that.
I did like an hour presentation on that, why? That’s a dumb quote. So, Polly, so great to see you. Maybe before we get started in talking about kind of well being and caring for employees and supporting them, and what’s your three of us had just a super challenging time for everyone. Maybe give us maybe a minute and a half on kind of what you actually do at Unum, we sort of read the bio, but let’s maybe just kind of set that up for our listeners. So they get understanding where you’re coming from.
Polly Nicholas 5:53
Of course, Steve, you know, the Unum solutions, business was actually recently formed. And really our intent is to make a difference for employers in the categories of leave of time off, and a behavioral health. And actually, in, you know, in the moments that we’re in this concept of caregiving, whether it be for elders, for children, the time off to get ourselves well, it’s just really an important one for the industry and for HR. And so we are committed to making a difference in this space for those employers and ultimately those employees.
Yeah, that’s great. I have a long relationship with you and prior to getting involved with the team there last year, meaning like, I was a Unum customer and a user at different times in my life with different employers in the past. So like, yeah, it was, you know, I got hammered home at a young age, the importance of like, things like short term disability, long term disability protection, right. I don’t know why, like, it seemed, it seems when you’re especially when you’re younger, it seems kind of futile. It’s not doesn’t really apply to me. But it’s, those kinds of things are super important, both from employers and employees, I think.
Polly Nicholas 7:05
You know, I couldn’t agree more. And when you think about the moment we’re in, one of the things that’s interesting is Melinda Gates actually has a venture capital. And it’s called Pivotal. And she recently published a study that showed that $510 billion is spent annually in the category of just that disability of helping people with this ability of caregiving for elders and caregiving for family. And so when you think about this concept of financial protection and needing time off, you know, there is an indication of where people are spending their money today, if you think about somebody getting paid, and that’s a really important topic today.
Are you finding that that’s even more important now, being in a pandemic, that’s obviously lasting quite a while, and we don’t know when it’ll end? Because I would think that, you know, Steve, and I have done a lot of shows on different kinds of disabilities, and people who need different types of support, which is you’re mentioning is challenging in and of itself, adding in something like a pandemic to either being the caregiver or the person needing care. Are you seeing that with your clients is, has that ramped up at all? In terms of the level or the intensity of the the care and support they need right now?
Polly Nicholas 8:24
You know, not only is it a high need area, it is a transformative area, you know, employees sort of arrive at the doorstep of employers saying, first of all, can you teach me how to do my job? And then secondly, after you’ve taught me how to do my job, do you know who I am? And do you understand the individual that I and self that I bring to my job, and so often today, what that looks like, is a dynamic that was very different than it was pre pandemic, right? That individual has a different set of beads than they had before. They’re often needing to take time off to care for a loved one, the pandemic, I suppose that across employers, and that loved one might not have just a short term need that loved one might have an intermittent leave or a longer term need and households have come together. So I think that what’s happened in the US economy in the in the environment is driving a higher need for that employee and ultimately, for our clients to figure out how to support and retain their best people by understanding who they are and what they need.
Polly, thank you. That leads me right into where I wanted to go next, which is what are some of the things that you’re seeing at Unum for 1000s of employers right across the country across the world? I guess and and what are some of the ways that employers are pivoting or expanding their their support or their programs that they’re they’ve implemented mechanisms to kind of to really accomplish these things to support employees where they are and also keep the business going right and retain employees and really tough times. There have been changes over the last I don’t know, year or two.
Polly Nicholas 10:00
Yeah, so I think some of the questions that are being asked are, you know, could a good lead program or could a good time off program actually be an opportunity to engage, retain grow talent, um, differently, where maybe time off two years ago, three years ago was something that employers really thought as a burden, and maybe as a purely productivity model. And now, with great resignation, they’re really thinking differently about how do I think about that whole employee? You know, Corie Barry, who was actually the CEO of BestBuy recently shared this concept of putting scaffolding around their employees, and in particular, their parents who work at their stores, and thinking about what are the things that they need an example some of the examples that they provided specifically, were things like, tutoring in the offices, so people could bring their children into a safe place. And while they were working, they could get light tutors in classrooms, and manage, you know, a different experience making Wi Fi available for individuals when they need them. Because their household may not have Wi Fi? Or if it does, it doesn’t support all of the things that need to happen. So you think about some of those core examples and how differently employers are thinking about what are my people facing? And how do I solve for them. And then finally, direct outreach to that caregiving economy? You know, you’ve watched this in the categories of both behavioral health, and then more broadly, caregiving, a lot of startups and organizations, building capabilities to solve these needs and behavioral health being one of those.
Do you think that when you’re talking with these, you know, clients that you have, or even other people in the community that that you are coming into contact with? Do you feel like organizational leaders are caring more in order to come up with some of these ideas and be open to them? Or do you think we’ve always just we’ve, we’ve cared about our employees, but maybe we just didn’t really personalize it to this level? I just wonder, have we always had it in us, I guess, as leaders? Or are you really seeing this as just that true transformational shift of something that that was not there before?
Polly Nicholas 12:19
You know, I think the thing that has driven that change, is the introduction and the safety to talk about behavioral health, actually, that that is really what is driving the new health of tomorrow, when you think about early identification of wellness, the increased comfort, still not where we need to be, but the increased comfort of raising this behavioral health conversation in in and at work today is a new conversation. And it is top of mind for employers. You know, I was looking at some other statistical information the other day, and over 93% of employers, when surveyed, would say that behavioral health is either a moderate or a high priority for them to think about what their role is, as an employer in relationship to their employee. And you think about what, what a vast opportunity that creates for managers to great connectedness for employers to figure out how to care for that, because it’s a delicate topic, and maybe not one that in particular, some of the senior leaders and organizations fully understand how to support yet the organization is probably, you know, got a great percent of millennials sitting in their company. And so how are they supporting groups that look like that and need needs support?
Yet, Polly, I think you also made a point earlier about retention, and maybe even attraction, I suppose a talent attraction to you. And I do think the data is showing increasingly, especially in the younger cohort of employees, or the newer entrants into the workforce, that these kinds of concerns like does my employer offer these types of programs? Does my employer you know, support us our mental health, our behavioral health, right? That’s a very important driver of attraction and retention. It’s, it’s, you know, I hate to say like, we should do things in organizations, because, you know, it’s it’s a competitive thing. Sometimes these things just be like the right thing to do. But maybe this is a bit of both, right, that not only is it the right thing to do, especially again, in your three of, you know, really challenging circumstances for most folks, but also for a competitive standing where, at least certainly in the US, and in most other industrialized economies, the labor market is as tight as it’s ever been.
Polly Nicholas 14:37
It’s as tight as it’s ever been. And what we all know is that our customers, clients, organizations, need their people to reflect who their customers are. They need their brand and their organization to serve ultimately their customers. And so in order to do that, you really have to be intentional and thoughtful about caring for enabling benefits for those individuals. And so comes a very interesting conversation when the group of millennials in particular would say they faced financial hardship in a material way through COVID, that has created personal stress that has also created potentially risk of retention or even ability to work. And so when you think about opening up this topic, and allowing employers and employees to have this good conversation about how folks are doing, actually, how are they doing, you can make an impact on your perceived safety in your organization, which is really the ultimate test, I think of productivity. And I think there is a direct correlation between safety and productivity, as you think about the opportunity to help to help people.
Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that’s come about through the pandemic, and through these kinds of discussions and organizations is that it’s less taboo. Because, you know, as a Gen X, or when I started working, and I’m sure you know, other people experienced this as well, you didn’t go to work and tell them, if you were struggling, you didn’t, whether that was with some sort of, you know, stress or, or a mental thing you were dealing with or something at home, or even something physical that was often you were really, you come to work to work. And then when you need to talk about other things, you go outside of work and do that. And so I do see there’s a shift, it seems like in, like you, you said, the increased comfort I like, I like that word comfort in terms of being able to talk about these things, I still don’t think we’re fully there. What would you say if I’m in an organization where I’m not seeing that movement, yet? Maybe we’re still pretty buckled up. When it comes to asking employees or not asking employees, what they’re feeling? What is something whether I’m an HR leader, or just, you know, a team leader, for example, do you have any, anything that you would suggest that they could be doing saying, to start opening that conversation and making it more comfortable?
Polly Nicholas 17:11
You know, I’d start with just the very simple conversation of asking folks how they’re doing, asking individual how they’re doing at a at a manager at or at a day to day level? at a corporate level? The question I would go after a look at is, how are my people representing who I want to be in the future? And how am I serving those people? And what are the data insights about those individuals that I need to both attract and retain and engage? That may be different today than they were yesterday? You know, Jason Auerbach often talks a little bit about you know, this, how are you doing conversation? And I could, it resonates with me, if you if you pause long enough to actually answer that question. And listen to your people, I think what you would find is just that there is a great opportunity to think about who you want to be and how you want to serve your your future customers, your clients. And ultimately, do your people look like those individuals that are going to help them?
Yeah, when you ask that question, too, I think one reason that I’ve heard over my career that people hesitate on that it’s a very simple question. But as humans, we feel like if we say, How are you doing, and you say, not so good. Now all of a sudden, I’m feeling like I might need to solve for something right, that I don’t feel equipped to solve for. And so I think that’s where a lot of times, we hesitate on really digging, and asking whether it’s a team member, a colleague, at our level, maybe even our boss, right, we see our boss struggling, because we’re all going through this at the same time. At at home and at work. So I think the message to is make sure that you’re not feeling like you have to solve something, sometimes just asking that question, how are you doing? And just saying, like, I’m here to listen, I think that was a tactic. At least I learned in HR, and hopefully, you know, other people have that as well. Do you need me to just listen to you? Or do you need me to solve something for you, or help you solve something? It’s not always solve something?
Polly Nicholas 19:13
I think that’s important. I think the other reality is that many of the infrastructure that sits in HR was built based on compliance. And based on rules and regulations, and not a consumer centric model. That is the opportunity for the future. And so I think teaching and creating paved roads for employers is really a focus for Unum, and then this solutions business in this category. So how do we keep you compliant? Because gosh, that is a basic requirement of showing up and providing HR.
Yeah, I don’t want to minimize that Polly like the solutions that that unit provides. They’re technically really complex, right? Because these laws around this stuff is are really complex and So I mean, I knew so many employers I worked at that had full a couple of people full time, just trying to track people coming and going on leave, you know, like two, maybe three FTEs. Just doing that all day long on Excel spreadsheets and documents and file cabinets. And it was awful. I mean, I don’t minimize that. That’s a very important pain point for organizations.
Polly Nicholas 20:22
It’s a pain point for organizations, you know, and in recent market research we did we had a CFO tell us like this is what technology should do. This is what technology is for it is to enable the basic compliance so we can put people in front of those really critical moments that matter, and help those individuals who actually have an emergent circumstance, but how do we alleviate the transactional nature of things that can be done that technology can enable? And when we think about where and how Unum solutions, business supports Employers today, and will continue to support employers is just that, how do we take that transactional nature of a set of things that can be compliant, and provide an individual on the other end of that experience, when somebody does need an individual to talk to and help them navigate, please help them navigate the HR experience to compliance on the employer side, and help them track their people and where they are in that journey. As they go, go to work, come back from work. Don’t underestimate the importance of coming back to her. So when I arrived back at work, quote, unquote, do I feel safe? Do I feel comfortable? Do I have the tools I need to be successful in the new operating model that I created for myself? You know, how do we think about making that come to life?
I think your technology too, and your solution, that’s what really enables that more personal caring approach, because to Steve’s point, if I’m a person, or a team of people who aren’t, my only job is to just process leaves, right? You get desensitized yourself working in human resources. Sometimes, if you were to only focus on trying to get the compliance part done, but also to manage all of these intricate interrelationships between your employees and what they’re actually struggling with, whether that be a medical need, or a mental well, being needs something like that. It’s like people cannot do it all. So I think, by working with Unum and partnering with you all, you’re enabling kind of that compliance piece to be lifted off of their shoulders a bit so that then they can have time to give attention to that more caring, compassionate look at your employees. And truly, if I’m going on leave, and you know, someone in my employer, whether it’s my boss, or HR, whoever I’m talking to, if if I know that they’re going to be, you know, technology to make sure that the I still get paid, and that I have the resources I need, right, that’s occurring, no matter what is the foundation, and then also, they’ve got resources to talk to you. Of course, I’m going to be more likely to stay there. Because now I feel cared for. So I do think that’s probably the difference that you are offering, maybe than what we had a decade ago, where it was just a person or two people or three people kind of doing this and having to do it. All right. I think that’s a huge difference of what you offer to your clients.
Polly Nicholas 23:27
And then advancing the simplistic ideas, like using Zell to pay folks while they’re on leave, as opposed to getting a check. And I know that sounds basic in the world that we live in today.
I’m not sure what I would do if someone sent me a check. I guess take a picture of it, and I could deposit it. But yeah, that’s a great point.
Polly Nicholas 23:44
That on top of, now that I am in, in the circumstances, maybe I have had a child, maybe I’ve adopted a child, you know, what are the things that I need? Now that I’m going back to work, that is where the caregiving economy comes in, and where we can really help people and put in front of people the things that they maybe didn’t even know they needed, because they were so caught up in their moment of for good reason of their change in life. And so how do we think more broadly, truly about that consumer, from everything from batch turn off from when I leave work? So it’s not 15 processes with an HR all the way to how am I helping that consumer on the other end, giving them some choices that some of the things that they might want to consider as they returned from leads?
Yeah, I had one more question. I definitely want to ask, but before I do that, Polly and Trish, let me take a second to thank our friends at Paychex, one of the leading providers of HR, payroll, retirement, and insurance solutions for businesses of all sizes. They’ve been great to us. We just had a great meeting with him the other day download like some of the new payroll innovations and just want to thank them so much for their support. You can download Paychex latest guide to discover how breaking down the silos between HR and finance can result in better business strategy and growth, as well as 14 Simple HR metrics your team should be tracking and why please go to Payx.me/fdmresearch and thanks to our friends at Paychex.
Polly, you know what I was thinking about when you were talking to a second ago, like some of these incidents, or, I mean, use the benefits Term Life Events, right that we all dealt with in HR and benefits right all their lives. These are like really big, potentially, and often really big moments in a person’s life, not I’m not talking about their work, remember their job, right? Having a child or getting you know, getting injured and not being able to work and worry about these are hugely impactful and emotional sometimes and scary, maybe at times, right incidents and personal lives. And to me, how an employer responds and supports people, when they’re really need that support to me is probably says more about that employer as a place to work with just about anything else I can think of I’d love for you maybe to maybe just their thoughts on that. Or maybe some an example or two, you can anonymize maybe of companies that you’ve worked with that really think about that deliberately and really try to be there and stand up for employees when they when they need them the most?
Polly Nicholas 26:18
Well, you know, it is it’s the identification that benefits are actually now perceived as the outside value of an organization. And we did again, some customer research had heard directly from employees and through our customers that that employee’s commitment and belonging is tied to how when they have those life moments that employer shows up. And so part of what employers need to begin to think about and part of where solutions within Unum can enable them is just that, how do we get the transactional basic things underway, so you, as an employer have the tools in front of you to be present with that employee as well as across your span of, of people? And so, you know, I think, not only is it an important topic, I think we will have to continue to evolve our thinking, you know, what is that human side of leave? today? It is in certain being compliant, no doubt about it. But tomorrow, is it about actually understanding what that employee is going through and maybe putting in front of that employer, the tools and capabilities they need, ie behavioral health, imagine being able to then answer that call to that employee and say, Well, I have the three capability that we provide this benefit to you in the category of behavioral health, because I anticipate that you might need some support, and we’ve got experts available to you, however, you want to use them to support you through that experience. And that’s a much bigger conversation than just EAP. That’s a conversation about a journey that maybe a family units on together to work through what the change means for them. Because the other thing I think we all often forget is it’s not often those like events that just impact that employee. It’s actually about the family unit that may be impacted by the change. And so how do we support and help them that that broader family unit to be successful?
One, even even more than before, now that we are working from home more and more and seeing you see people’s families on Zoom with them, or, you know, on video, we like Steve was saying we were just on a call recently where there were two babies on. But look, that’s that’s the new normal, the new normal is that we now acknowledge and can bring and our families are there. And even if they’re not on screen, like they’re there in the home, hearing us work and hearing our interactions with our colleagues and hearing our interactions with our bosses. And so yes, if we’re stressed, or we’re having struggles at home, on anything, whether it’s behavioral health or physical health, they know about it. And they know that our work knows about it. So it’s yeah, it’s mashing that together. I hope that’s going to be easier as we all get more comfortable with, you know, saying that we need some assistance.
Polly Nicholas 29:16
I think it will. I think one of the things though, that is also happening that is changing the dynamics that we work and live in today is that this concept of paid leave is really being left up to employers, generally speaking with a number of states, 11 of them as of right now who are creating their own paid leave program. But employers are really stuck in this very interesting spot of Gosh, I’ve got this great resignation. I’ve got to retain and engage people that look and act and are my customers. And by the way, I need to give and plan for and budget for them to have the time off. They need to support their whole selves. How do I take that mix of things and when is my role and where is the role of my state or my federal government? And, you know, I just think there’s a lot there to be worked through. And again, you know, we’re really focused on helping clients helping our customers really find that paved road to navigate through that set of circumstance, in a way that is consumer centric. But it’s not without challenge, and not without an ever changing dynamic with the overlay of COVID. And all the other things that HR is faced with, you know, it’s there is a lot of work ahead of us to really make a difference and to help employers.
Yeah, and help employees and their families ultimately, right. And I that’s why I love payroll, Trish, we’ve talked about payroll endlessly on the show Paychex, supports the show so graciously, but I’m at life benefits more, I really do. And and the reason it leads to something Polly mentioned a second ago was these life events, these big, emotional, scary, things don’t affect just an employer most often, right? It’s their family members as well. And employees love their jobs, they love their colleagues, they love their families more I would, I would probably say they can sell when these things affect family members, it becomes even more important and just an opportunity as well, for organizations to really to show up and do the right thing. So anyway, we could go on forever. And probably, here’s what I’d like maybe to do if you can the last minute or two of the show. For folks who are interested in learning more about the Unum solutions, what’s available, maybe there’s ton of resources on the website, I know as well, but just folks who are going to be looking in 2022, to really kind of now expand on or enhance or improve how they’re handling things like leave how they’re handling things like behaviour house, how they’re trying to show up more deliberately, unintentionally. For employees, where would you like them to go?
Polly Nicholas 31:56
Yes, really, it’s just to unum.com Actually, it’s really simple. We have a plethora of insights and information around how we support through that lead program, what our total leave experience is and where it’s going. And actually, over the next several months, we will be doing a variety of both will show up at HR tech, who will show up at a variety of rooms over the next year to help people understand just that how are we enabling that human centric side of leave and human centered experience? So go out to youtube.com. It’s available there, but also look for us and maybe in rooms you haven’t expected to see us before, where we can help really explain how that humans excitedly is going to come to life and is coming to life for employers today.
Yeah, that’s awesome. Polly, thank you so much for that. Yeah. And the technology is really, really good. It’s really sophisticated way more advanced than you think probably perhaps if you haven’t thought about this kind of technology in a while, much like all elements of HR Tech have advanced just dramatically in the last 5-10 years. The technology solutions that Unum has created are very, very specific and very powerful, very consumer, like if you will, right, and I think just a great leap forward in this area to Great, thank you. All right, Polly, thank you so much. Great to have you. Trish. Good to see you. Glad you’re well on the mend. Yeah. Try not to get COVID for the third time, please. We got a lot of shows to do in the next couple months.
I don’t know I just heard on the news today. They’re working on yet another variation to this vaccine and booster and can’t deal with it. I am hopeful. As soon as now I need to figure out like how soon can I do this? Right. Like I think once you have it you have to wait a minute.
Well, good stuff. Thanks again to Polly’s and our friends at Unum. Thanks to our friends at Paychex of course. Remember to subscribe to the HR Happy Hour Show wherever you get your podcast and all the show archives at HRHappyHour.net. My name is Steve Boese, for Polly Nicholas, for Trish McFarlane. Thanks so much for listening. We will see you next time. Bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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