Building a Strong and Impactful DEI Strategy for 2023
Hosts: Steve Boese, Trish McFarlane
Guest: Thushyanthi (Thushy) Muruges, Equitable Design Lead, People & Experience at Culture Amp
This episode of At Work in America is sponsored by Paychex, one of the leading providers of HR, payroll, retirement, and insurance solutions for businesses of all sizes. Even the most seasoned professional can easily be overwhelmed by the critical tasks that need to be done during year-end. Download the Paychex Year-End Checklist to get organized. In it you’ll find timely tips, important deadlines, and advice backed by decades of experience to help navigate this time of year, so you don’t lose momentum as you transition to 2023. Visit paychex.com/awia to download your copy, today.
This week we met with Thushy Muruges from Culture Amp to talk about the importance of building a DEI strategy for the new year that is impactful to your organization.
– The role of an Equitable Design Lead
– DEI throughout the employee journey and advice for those who want to be an influence within their organization
– Challenges in implementing DEI initiatives
– Importance of looking at employee needs holistically including how remote workers fit in
To learn more about DEI strategies from Culture Amp – visit here
Thank you for joining the show today! Remember to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
Welcome to At Work in America sponsored by Paychex. We welcome a wide and exceptionally impressive array of guests, business leaders, HR leaders, academics, practitioners, consultants and authors to talk about the most timely, relevant and challenging issues that are influencing the workplace today. At Work in America digs in behind the headlines and trends to the stories of real people making a difference in the world of work. And now here are your hosts, Steve Boese and Trish McFarlane Steed.
Hello, and welcome to the At Work in America show we have a great show today. Trish McFarlane, how are you today? Great to see you.
I am fantastic. How are you?
I am well. I’m excited for this show. It’s a topic we love. We’re going to be talking about DEI strategy, kind of preparing for the beginning of 2023. And what can organizations take from what’s happened in 2022, and maybe even before to bring into the 2023 strategy. DEI is an important topic for organizations for HR leaders and on the show, too. So I’m excited that we’re talking about it sort of as one of our last shows of the year to write to help people for getting ready for next year?
Oh, absolutely. I think that’s the key time when you really want to be re-evaluating all of your processes, your policies, your strategies, every approach you’re taking, it feels like that’s when people are maybe most apt to make some meaningful changes right and, and enhance what you’re doing. So I think the other thing too, is there’s tends to be some noise in the space about this sort of thing. So when you can get your hands on an actual expert who’s going to bring in some real life examples, things that actually work even better. So yeah, I’m really excited about our guest today, and plenty of research and data as well.
We’ll welcome our guest here in a second Trish, we must first thank our friends at Paychex. This episode of At Work in America is sponsored by Paychex, one of the leading providers of HR, payroll, retirement and insurance solutions for businesses of all sizes. Even the most seasoned professionals can easily be overwhelmed by the critical tasks that need to be done during your end. But you can download the Paychex year end checklist to get organized. You’ll find timely tips, important deadlines and advice backed by decades of experience to help navigate this time of year to don’t lose momentum as you transition to 2023. And you can visit paychex.com/awia for At Work in America to download your copy today. And many thanks to our friends at Paychex.
And thanks to Tom Hammond, great friend of the show from Paychex, who joined us on a recent show to really go through a lot of the year end stuff that payroll and HR professionals need to be aware of and to get prepared for 2023. We love doing that show and please check that out in the archives as well. All right, let’s get on with the stretch our guest today is Thushy Muruges. She is the Equitable Design Lead for People and Experience at Culture Amp. It is great to welcome Culture Amp back to the show about building a strong and impactful DEI strategy. She designs people programs and practices that allow anyone to grow and thrive. She’s passionate about helping others find non linear path to career happiness, and coaches non traditional candidates on how to pivot into technology, at Culture Amp she’s formalized their employee research resource group programs, ensuring that the groups are able to set ambitious goals and help their communities to thrive. And she has significant experiences and DEI data and reporting, ERG governance and management and organizational accessibility and compliance. Welcome to the show. How are you today? Great to see you.
Thushy Muruges 4:08
Thank you for having me. I’m doing well.
Tell us a little bit about your role. I love the title is fascinating, right? Equitable design lead. I love that. I’ve never seen that before. I don’t think maybe tell us a little bit more about that. And what what you, you know, maybe translate that for us a little bit about your role a contract.
Thushy Muruges 4:26
Of course, that is our DEI team. And the equitable design is by design because we want to be focused on creating equity in all of our people processes rather than focus on tokenistic diversity metrics. So that’s where we’re focused on changing the way we name the work that we do equitable design and impact. And there is a big team of us have a small but mighty team I would say at Culture Amp. Our director of product focuses on mostly our high level strategy and our product side. And I’m internally focused with our people and experience. And we have an amazing new team member who’s focused on sustainability. So she’s Ella McKinley, she’s our EDI, LEED for sustainability. And then we also borrow some team members to work on equitable hiring, as well as social impact on our team.
You know, it’s so fascinating, because not only is your role in the sort of the team name, just something that’s going to help keep you really tightly focused on on making a meaningful sort of transition for these organizations that you all work with? Could you just talk I know that sustainability isn’t our, our overarching topic of today. Can you talk a little bit more about that, because I’ve been kind of just barely hearing that pop up. And that was one of the trends that Steve and I talked about, for 2023 was going to be around people sustainability. So to hear that you’ve actually put a person in that role, maybe just give us a little flavor for that? Because I don’t think a lot of people are are doing that just yet.
Thushy Muruges 6:06
Yeah, I’m not the expert in sustainability. I would say our team member Ella is, and we’re focused, you know, we are a B Corp company. And we have made that 1% pledge. And so we’re focused on what is the impact that are we having on the planet? As a company, as you know, what, on our customers, through our employees? What’s the impact that we can have on climate change on sustainability? So she’s really focused with our team in APAC, working closely with our CEO on making sure we have some sustainable goals, keeping track of how are we doing as a company in terms of moving towards net zero? So I’m probably throwing worried buzzwords that I don’t even understand. So you have to have Ella come to your show and talk a little bit?
Thank you. Yeah, it’s just so important. And again, I think especially we hear a lot from, we have a podcast around Gen Z, and a lot of what they’re even hearing and researching. It shows that super important for the generations that are just not entering the workforce as well. So I think the fact that you all are putting, you know, effort into being more mindful about that is really, really a great thing.
Thushy Muruges 7:23
I will say, yeah, it resonates with our employees, who we call campers, we have an employee resource group, or an affinity group around sustainability, and they’re called Camp climate crisis. And they were one of our largest employee resource groups, and they’re focused on how do they use social impact days to do beach cleanups and make an impact within their communities? It’s wonderful.
So I looked for you to comment a little bit about whether its research base, you know, kind of insights from a lot of the culture and research or your own kind of work inside of Culture Amp on advancing DEI inside the organization? And what can what can organizations take? Or what are you guys taking from last year, or maybe last couple of years, that you can advance forward into 2023 to, I don’t know, maybe not lose initiative not lose momentum around these topics? Because I do feel like at times, and I could be wrong about this. But my sense is people can, can maybe get complacent around these topics. If you’ve created certain programs, and you put them in place. Do you think maybe you’re done? And I doubt that’s the case. I’d love for you to share some thoughts about kind of continuing to advance these programs and organizations moving forward.
Thushy Muruges 8:36
Yeah, I think companies need to continue funding and resourcing around DEI initiatives. So our research shows that there’s interest, there are some initiatives that companies take, but only about 34% of the companies that we found in our research early earlier in 2022, reported having enough resources to support those dei initiatives that they started. So continue funding and resourcing those initiatives. And then on the other end, for the practitioners have more strategic and measurable goals, you know, don’t just put a program in place, how are you measuring? How are you tracking? And how are you reporting on that? And I find it important to have more accountability, not only internally, but externally. We publish our EDI goals externally, and it keeps us accountable within the company and outside with our customers on how are we tracking and measuring and reporting on them. And we’re not always going to hit the goals but it’s always important to show hey, here’s where we’re falling behind here. It’s it’s hard, you’re we’re not going to get this work, right. And so, there’s no there’s no harm in being open about where we are in the journey and sharing resources. externally and learning from each other. So, again, you know, how are practitioners measuring their progress?
You know, could you talk a little bit about measurement in terms of I feel like when you think about diversity, that’s something that might be a little bit easier, easier to measure, right? You can have goals around hiring, and that sort of thing. And you can measure to see, are we doing that around equity? While not everyone is, is getting that right. Yeah, of course, it seems a little bit more tangible to measure. Could you talk a little bit about the inclusion piece, though, because I think that’s where when I talk to practitioners, just other business leaders, they struggle a little bit with, okay, I feel like I’m trying to get a handle on the first two, but how do you really go about and set goals for inclusion? But how are you measuring that? Are there any ways that you’re finding success with? Or maybe your customers?
Thushy Muruges 10:52
Yeah, internally, we use our employee engagement survey. And there are inclusion metrics that are in some of the questions that we were asking our employees to measure their sense of belonging and inclusion within the company, your the way you fund and support ERGs? And maybe goals around what are these are doing or another way to track inclusion for those marginalized communities as well? Are they being impactful? Not only having events, but do your ERG’s have goals that they’re tracking, and our ERG that Culture Amp actually look at our employee engagement data against their demographic and understand more around what is that experience for their demographic look like and set goals, every six months, on addressing some of the needs that are coming out of those, the survey questions and just the results, and we also lean heavily on our employee resource groups around those marginalized, marginalized identities to say, hey, we were seeing this data. And it’s quantitative, we’d love to hear the qualitative side, we have some hypothesis, can we do some listening sessions? Can we really hear from the folks who are giving these answers in a very safe environment? What’s behind the numbers? And so we really tap into our employee resource group to help us understand how does inclusion look like for the most marginalized?
Thank you all really good, good suggestions and things that people can actually do, right? That you might not be be thinking to do, because again, a lot of people survey, but then they’re not even sure what to do next with that data. I love the suggestion of sort of going after the qualitative data in a safe environment.
Thushy Muruges 12:42
Yes, and if you don’t have ERG groups, I also run listening session. So I send an email to you know, if I saw our Asian campers or Asian employees are falling behind on a metric, I might, I might track that over a couple of surveys and then sending an email out to all campers who identify as Asians and say, Hey, would you like to have a listening session with me, and I’m very concerned about safety within those groups. So it’s an the email that I sent is anonymized. And then when, when they do come in, I have some parameters around not having leaders in that space. We want our employees to feel safe enough to give us the feedback. And then I have anonymized ways for them to give me the feet. So I could ask a question live, but they can give me anonymized answers within a different form. And the way I follow up is summarizing their points to share back and say, Have I summarized what you’ve shared in the right way, before I share it with our leaders get a response and then put it as a report that we track internally.
I love especially that last step, right? So many of us, just in general in life, we don’t always do that last step of let me confirm this is what I heard. So okay, that’s really, really good stuff. Thank you.
Yeah, she had a question, which is kind of, I think, a common one or one for organizations that maybe aren’t as far along the path or as well resourced or, or perhaps don’t have a formal group dedicated to DEI, right initiatives in the organization, which is thinking about these DEI strategies and approaches a little bit more expansively, because I think, typically right wing organizations, and it makes sense, where it will start with recruiting and say, Okay, let’s expand our candidate pools and let’s make sure that we’re interviewing a diverse group of candidates for any given job that we may have or make sure our candidate pools reflect the diversity of our community in which our organization resides, et cetera. That seems logical, right. And I think organizations have made progress on that. But often, I think we can kind of think that’s, that’s perhaps Now for that maybe we’ll stop there, or that’s enough to take on if you will, either other ways or other elements in the employee journey, or the lifecycle or the employee experience, whatever term you prefer to use is fine. Where we can think a little bit more expansively and extend these ideas of let’s create a more equitable and inclusive organization beyond just let’s make sure we have enough candidates from a certain group.
Thushy Muruges 15:25
Yeah, I would actually challenge organizations to not focus on hiring and focus on creating equitable processes internally. So you, when those folks do come into the company, they can actually grow and thrive, and you can retain that talent. So it’s a lot of hard work on our talent acquisition teams to bring in that talent. And if the environment is not safe, and the processes and programs are not going to support their growth, then you’ve wasted all that effort in recruiting, and you’re going to be just focused on recruiting and not retaining that talent. So I’d actually slip it to say, companies need to be thinking about auditing their internal processes for equity. You know, are you doing performance audits? Are you doing audits within your, you know, promotion cycles? Are there? Are there equitable process leads to development and opportunities that are given within the company? And can whoever you’re bringing in, can they actually feel like they belong, you know, do you have that inclusion factor built in? So, I would say, do it, like, do it for the rest of the employee lifecycle? You know, what, what, what does onboarding looks like? Can someone with a neurodiversity go through the onboarding process and get the same information as another camper or another employee? I keep referring to them as campers, that’s what we call our employees. You know, do you have parental leave to support parents and caregivers that you’re pulling in? Do you have proper health insurance for LGBTQ campers or employees that you’re bringing in? So thinking about the rest of the employee lifecycle? What is it equitable?
I love that you’re talking about sort of just keeping that that theme going for the entire time that an employee’s with you? Could you maybe talk specifically about what if you know a lot of the people that listen to our leaders, so they have the ability to put some of these things in place pretty easily if they choose to? What about maybe some of the audience where maybe you’re in a more junior role, or your mid level HR or talent level somewhere? And you’re thinking, wow, okay, this sounds great. We’re not doing any of this. Do you have any advice? I know, you’ve got a lot of resources, is there anything, maybe you would advise them or places to kind of point someone on how to be an influence within their own organization? Or what to take even to their boss to get something like this going?
Thushy Muruges 17:58
Yeah, I partner, quite frequently with our people, partners or HR team, on, you know, eat all of their processes. So whether it be performance cycle, you know, it’s easy to do an audit of can. Are we creating an equitable process? Where are decisions made fairly and equitably? Or does some leader have a way to make decisions about their team? That’s different than other team members? You know, that’s an easy way to audit your process. So what are the things that are within their control? There’s a lot that they can do in terms of just looking at the current process and thinking about is this equitable? And the way I think about whether something is equitable is to put it put the lens of like, you know, who is the most marginalized, that you can think of? And can they go through this process? Can they go through this process and have an equitable experience as a white cis, man?
Right? No, that’s excellent. I think, too. So if I’m sitting there, and I’m thinking like, okay, that’s something I could do. On my own, even before I go into the head of recruitment, or the head of talent or the CEO, right, whoever the leader might be, right, I could do some of some of this, like, I will have it let me be a light audit on your own. Right. So don’t just go into, you know, your leader with the problem and say, I think we have a problem here. Then it may be goes into, Oh, I’ve started to really think about our processes. And Could someone like you mentioned what, you know, in this way? Could they go through our process? And would it would it look the same for them? If not, what a great conversation starter? That would be.
Thushy Muruges 19:50
Yep. And you can take you have HR folks have access to demographic data. You know, in the US, we collect the EEOC data so you can you match that with the employee data to see are certain groups of folks getting promotions and pay raises in every cycle? That’s an easy audit to do to have started that conversation. And then other other things that I think about, you know, just reviewing benefits that we have. Even in the benefit review process, our team pulls our EDI team in to consult with them. And so thinking about do we have benefits that support folks like caregivers? And is your sick leave covering mental health? days, that’s a simple implementation that you can make it’s already allotted. So if you can just make that sick leave also available for mental health days? What a huge impact you can have on your employee.
Yes, thanks for that. We’ve talked about this for years on this show. And HR professionals and leaders are always coming up against challenges in implementing programs, initiatives, even new technologies, right, that they think will be beneficial to the organization into the people in the organization. And you run up against the typical right organizational challenges, adequate resources, adequate budget, but certainly leadership support is one that no matter what initiative we talk about, right, you’re going to struggle at times or maybe completely if you don’t have adequate leadership support in the organization’s. And I know that some of the research that you guys do shows that while people all sort of believe that, hey, DNI and investing in DNI, and more inclusive cultures are likely to be more successful, they’re more welcoming, people feel better about working there, et cetera, et cetera. Often you don’t have that leadership buy in and the buy in, even if they buy in philosophically, they don’t always buy in where it really counts, sometimes with dedicating resources dedicating budget, etc. I’d love for you to comment a little bit about what the data has shown you on that topic. And then maybe secondarily, and perhaps more importantly, for folks who might be running into that challenge themselves, right, like, Hey, I’ve got to try to muster the right level of support in my organization for these investments, what what might they be able to do to, to be more successful in gaining that support?
Thushy Muruges 22:28
Yeah, for me, that problem, you know, it’s really, really hard to do a DEI role or initiative without that leadership buy in, because you need the funding and the resources and the, the buy in from the top down, to be able to be more impactful. So I was just reading a report that clapper put up this morning, around, you know, dei initiatives are the first to get defunded in climates like this, our economic climate like this, because they’re often seen as an overhead cost rather than a business imperative. And until leaders can get there, you know, your DEI efforts are the first things that are going to get impacted, especially with layoffs. We see black and brown candidates are this, you know, our employees are one of the first to go, you know, talent teams go in. So it is one of the first things.
I think I even read somewhere that HR folks focusing on DEI are often kind of lined up for earliest reductions or, you know, headcount reductions in certain organizations.
Thushy Muruges 23:40
And we’ll always run into this issue if they’re not seen as a business imperative to the organization. So I’m really proud to work at culture amp, where we’re doubling down on our you know, we have two and a half plus people on my team, who are focused on this work, and it is a company, you know, it is a investment from the top down, because we know what the workforce is going to look like in the future. And if we’re not prepared for that, we’re going to be left behind so the workforce is going to be diverse, and our Gen Z population, you can take a look at that. You know, that that’s the that’s the talent, all the companies are going to be competing against and if you’re not ahead of the game, you’re going to be falling behind as a company. So I I hate making the business case conversation because we shouldn’t be doing that in 2022 with leaders around, hey, just look around, look at the workforce. This is this is what you got. You got parents, you got caregivers, you have people with neurodiversity, people with physical disability, and that’s that’s your workforce and you’re gonna have to, you’re gonna have to adapt your organization and start including these folks are you’re going Gonna be left behind, you know, the people that you lay off now, you’re going to have a harder time hiring back when the economy picks back, because we can look and see, you know, what got defunded? What programs got cut and can’t do it. As you can see, you know, when we were picking up hiring in 2022, that was the question that most candidates asked, What are your dei initiatives? Where are you focused on? And so the the biggest business imperative for companies is they’re going to fall behind on talent, if they don’t keep up.
Yeah, I think. And again, this is not research based, this is just trician opinion. But it seems like those of us who are already in the workforce have sort of grown up with being rewarded when we do things individually, that are considered good or profitable. And so I think that’s why it’s sometimes difficult, where when you talk about Gen Z, for example, and their attitudes towards each other, are much more inclusive than I would, then I guess, if you measure that, I would think that if you measure the current people that are working are probably less inclusive as a group holistically compared to maybe the generation coming in to the workforce. And so to your point, if we’re not looking to them, to see what it is, is important to them, Why is it important to them? And building that in? That can be really difficult. Let’s be honest, if you’re in a leadership position now, and you’ve been constantly rewarded your entire career for, for doing things very individually, or maybe just with a small, small team of people, it, it makes it harder to put that lens on to say, Oh, wait, there are other people that are impacted in our organization or in our world, you know, and I don’t I don’t know that there’s an easy solution to that, right. It’s something we each have to take into our own head and our own heart and say, okay, just because we’ve been kind of raised and work in this way, we really do have to change, there is a business case for change, right? Like you’re saying you will be left behind. But it’s unfortunate that there isn’t more of a carrot approach to say, right, here are all the great reasons why you need to do it. It’s sort of like, it’s going to be really dangerous if you don’t.
Yeah, I think it’s so interesting. You say that, and I think maybe some of this will I mean, we I guess we say this a lot and I don’t know if it really ever comes true. But like I was just slightly different topic was in the DEI topic was more around one of the other sort of hot button topics in the world of work today, which is remote working hybrid working some organizations trying to drag people back into into work locations or offices right when they don’t necessarily have to be deterred cetera. And I was reading a piece about this this morning. And the point of view was more about paraphrasing a little bit, but the headline was something like, I’m sick of old male billionaires telling me you know, how I should be working right there out of subtext was they’re very out of touch times of change times. Moving on, we’ve got, as you said, that you caregivers and people doing elder care, doing childcare doing neurodiverse folks all manner of different types of people in the workforce, who the standard nine to five, Monday through Friday in the office doesn’t really work for them, not just that it doesn’t work for them, but they’re not able to do their best work to help the organization thrive. And so perhaps we’ll see some changes as the newer leaders emerge, right and replace these old dinosaurs, if you will. Right. I hope so. Maybe that’ll happen.
Thushy Muruges 28:45
Yeah, I mean, you just brought up the point around remote work. And that’s another one that I didn’t mention earlier for HR leaders is to think about flexibility in the workplace. That is one easy step we can all take to make sure people feel included and inclusive, you know, you have an inclusive work environment.
That’s another great example. Right? We talked a little bit before we started recording the show about how one of the things we’re Trish and I and H3 is really concentrating on and next year, is the expanse expanding the ideas of inclusion, right? And what does it mean to be an inclusive organization? And it means not just some of the traditional things that we’ve traditionally talked about, right, like we said, talked about earlier on the show about candidate pools and things like that, but certainly remote work flexible working major, major topic moving forward, not just because people don’t want to drive in their car for an hour, right and traffic, which does kind of suck right, but it’s not about that really, it’s about a lot more than that. So I’m glad that she brought that up as well because I think that’s a great element of the DEI conversation have next year.
Just a quick thought on that. I think part of this goes back maybe to the sheet at the beginning, where you’re talking about even just the way that you name, what you do, or you name what something’s going to be focused on. I think because as a society, we’ve called it DEI for so long, that it almost seems like it’s three separate things. And it was sort of an aha moment a few months ago, when Steve and I were talking and it was like, inclusion is part of diverse approaches. Inclusion is part of equitable approaches, right? It’s part of everything you do. And so I do wonder, it’s like, just the way that we say DEI, it feels like the and AI is something completely separate and remove that you do. So I don’t know. I mean, obviously, there’s not a solution there. But I just I feel like that’s more of this, this thread that runs through every single thing, like we’re talking about, right. And so even just the way that we’re positioning it, when we go talk to our leaders, it seems like a it’s an and we say it, well, you’re saying it more DEI, right. But a lot of people put the and in there. And so there’s just like, oh, and and inclusion. Oh, yeah, by the way. So I, I don’t know, I would challenge people who are listening to maybe think about the way that you talk about it inside your organization? Is it considered a separate thing? Or is it something you’re going to weave throughout every single part of your employee experience in your company?
Thushy Muruges 31:26
Yep. And that’s the only way to be equitable, it’s not just separate, it’s part of everything. So equity in all parts of the employee cycle creates inclusion, and then you can be successful with your diversity, hiring and retention.
I love that approach. I like it. That’s different. And I like that it’s kind of kind of not just focusing on the candidate funnel, right? If there’s nothing else to take away from this conversation is, hey, that’s fine. And that’s a good initiative. And I’ve seen 50,000 Software Solutions over the last five years that help organizations do just that part, right, diversify their candidate funnel. And that’s a great thing and an important thing, but there’s so much more and perhaps more valuable work to do than just diversifying candidate pools. Last thing for me would be we referenced some research that Culture Amp does. Culture Amp is famous for providing to the community loads and loads of data and analysis on what’s working, what’s not working, what how people are feeling about these initiatives, I’d love for you to maybe do for folks who want to learn more and maybe do some reading over the holiday break, which is coming up right and do some research as they prep for 2023. Do you have a couple of recommendations for them.
Thushy Muruges 32:42
Yeah, I would say go to the blog section on Culture Amp and then just search for DEI. And you’ll see so many articles, because we’re really thinking about how do we impact the world around us? How do we create a better world of work? So it’s not about doing things? Right. But how are we sharing that externally? So everything that we are doing internally, we’re trying to make available? The DEI in 2022, the key trends and findings is an really important piece of data that we’d like collected from our members mark, customer communities. So that’s a good one to just, that’s where I pulled some of the data that I I was mentioning, you can also look at on new blogs that are coming out around you know, how do you support a your employees through layoffs, there’s just so much information that our people scientists team is putting out in our blog. So I would say just go straight to our blog page.
Awesome. Love it. Well, great stuff. Thanks so much for joining us. Great to connect with our friends at Culture Amp once again. And we even had a couple of those people on the show in the past. Right. Some of my favorite conversations are with the folks at Culture Amp. Thushy, thanks so much for joining us in. Great to see you and thanks again.
Thushy Muruges 34:03
Yeah, thank you. I hope to come back and also bring some of my team members back. I’d love to see the conversation on sustainability.
Exactly. I was gonna say we’re gonna do the sustainability show. We’re gonna get that scheduled because I’d love to talk about that in more depth for sure.
Absolutely. All right. Thank you, Steve.
Good stuff. ThanksThushy, thank you Trish. Great to see you. Thanks, everybody, for listening, of course and thanks to our friends at Paychex of course. And we will put links to the show in the show notes to some of the resources we talked about today, as well as the Culture Amp blog. And reminder you can get all the show archives at HRHappyHour.net. Okay, that’s it for today’s show. For our guest, for Trish McFarlane, my name is Steve Boese, thank you so much for listening. We’ll see you next time. And bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai